The Basement: Mitch Horowitz | Gandhi, Reagan, and the Occultists History Erased

**AJ** (0:00)
Today, I'm talking with Mitch Horowitz. When Mitch was a kid in Queens, he got an astrology scroll from a vending machine. Every adult around him said it was nonsense. Oh, every adult said it was nonsense, sir. Adults also said the moon landing was real, sir.
He spent the 50 years since taking that scroll seriously. He became a highly respected editor at Penguin Random House and won a PEN Award for writing the history of the occult in America. Today, we're covering how occult ideas got into Ronald Reagan's speeches, Gandhi's philosophy and the dollar bill in your wallet. I promise it's way weirder than that. Plus, his new book Esoterica and its formulas for tearing down your self. Oh, I tore down my self once. Underneath was another me. Handsomer, bigger muscles, better credit. Yeah, I miss that guy.
He also made a calm, friendly case that I might be a left-hand path Satanist.
That one caught me by surprise. Stick around after the episode. I'll pop back in and untangle the conversation. And it's very tangled. Let's go down to the basement.
Mitch Horowitz, welcome to the basement.

**Mitch Horowitz** (1:12)
Thank you, my man. Great to be here.

**AJ** (1:13)
I'm excited.
I'm excited. Before we get started, why is the occult guy on a Zoom with the Henson family?

**Mitch Horowitz** (1:21)
Oh, I was doing a fundraiser for the Philosophical Research Society, and they are an organization dedicated to studying the esoteric that was founded by the great occult scholar, Manley P. Hall.
And I was told that a couple of members of the Henson family were interested both in supporting the center and in my work. And would I do some sessions with them to talk over occult history and esoterica? I was delighted. Of course. I'm a Jim fan going back to diapers and remaining today. And I was delighted to talk to them. And they are carrying the family flame.

**AJ** (2:00)
Wow. I thought I heard you talking about Neverending Stories, one of your favorites.

**Mitch Horowitz** (2:04)
Oh, tremendously so. Henson has such an incredible ability to capture the mythical in a way that entrances young kids and adults alike. And at age 60, I'm still finding folds within his work. I just love the man.

**AJ** (2:21)
Yeah. You could watch Dark Crystal. I think it came out in 79 You still see things in it.

**Mitch Horowitz** (2:25)
You still see things.

**AJ** (2:26)
He was such a genius.

**Mitch Horowitz** (2:27)
He worked so hard. And not only was there technical excellence in everything he did, but he finds the inner meaning of myth. And he tells the story as an outer story, but you capture all the esoteric lessons and elements within Jim's work.

**AJ** (2:45)
I need to revisit it now that I'm familiar with yours, because I know I'm going to find new stuff in there.
So the occult, excuse me, this is how I work. I'm just on this.
The occult, does it start with the Silver Moon diner, or does it start in Mrs. Shapiro's Sunday School class?
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**Mitch Horowitz** (4:35)
Probably it starts with Mrs. Shapiro's Sunday school class at Bellrose Queens.