The Backstories of Australia’s Most Colourful Characters

Meshel Laurie (0:04)

This is Australian True Crime with Meshel Laurie, and our guest today describes himself as prison adjacent. John Herbert is a Sydney-based boxing trainer who spent decades running a gym in Maryland, where he worked with young men at risk of heading into crime or prison. His book Crossroads tells the first-hand stories of 13 Australian men whose lives have involved crime, incarceration, sport, and adversity, exploring the pivotal moments that changed the course of their lives and their paths towards redemption.

This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin Nation. And a warning, this episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence.

John Herbert (0:55)

I've had a colourful life too.

Never been in prison, but in very close, but I've always got on really well with these kind of people. As they're normal people to me, they're just, I get on great with them. They can trust me, I trust them. My very close friend, Fiona Shilts, she'd been at me for a long time. She goes, why don't you do a book? You know, so many people. And I sort of, yeah, one day, one day, I never really worried about it too much. And then kept at me and at me. And then in the end, I thought, all right, I'll have a think about it. And yeah, that's how it all got started.

Meshel Laurie (1:34)

Well, you say that you have always had a great relationship with these kinds of people, by which I assume you mean offenders, potentially violent offenders, people that other people maybe shy away from.

John Herbert (1:47)

Some of them fall into that category, but virtually the cycle of people that don't go to church, that are a little bit different.

They're tainted with a brush that I don't believe in. Whenever you've done something wrong, you're referred to as that kind of person.

I don't see it as that. People make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. But if you're in, for example, a bikey lifestyle, you're tainted as that and everyone's the same. You could be in a bike club and you've got a bad apple here, a bad apple there, but the whole thing is, the whole club's tainted with that same brush as well. I don't agree with that.

Meshel Laurie (2:35)

So the men that you cover in this book, they're a pretty diverse group, from Graham Henry, one of Australia's most notorious gangsters, to respected NRL great Craig Field, boxer, acclaimed boxer Michael Katsidis. We've even got a MAPS, Married at First Sight bloke in here, Tim Smith. I love George Snake Charmer Farrah.

John Herbert (2:55)

Good point. He's a perfect example. He came up, grew up in Bathurst, had a criminal nature about him, doing this and that throughout his career. Then he became a bikey.

Then he's come out of the bikey scene.

But he's still regarded as an ex-bikey, an ex this, an ex that. But he's not. He's doing so many good things for the community, for kids, for charities. You know, he bends over backwards. You know, he's trying to give that path and his lifestyle in that direction. He wants to be known for that. Not for what he used to be. He wants to be known for what he's doing now. And that's virtually the same with the people in the book.

Meshel Laurie (3:43)

Can I just ask you before we move on, does George have convictions?

John Herbert (3:46)

Yes, he has. Yes. There was some drugs there at some stage.

He has done time.

Meshel Laurie (3:54)

I mean, I know that's not what you want to focus on, what they want to focus on. But I think that given the context, which is that these are men who we could look at one way, but you want us to look at a different way. I think it's important that we acknowledge the other perspective on them and what they're up against basically.

John Herbert (4:10)

I totally agree. Everybody in the book's done time except for one person, Mark Hammer Dixon, who was Chopper Reed's bodyguard.

He was a bouncer. He's seen it all. He's been on the doors for many years. He traveled around Australia with Chopper Reed, and he was Roger Rogerson's bodyguard as well. Wow.

Meshel Laurie (4:34)

We Australians love our colorful characters. I mean, you've mentioned Chopper and Roger Rogerson, who traveled the country for years doing live shows, talking about their criminal backgrounds. So I don't know if it's because we're a convict nation or what it is, but there is certainly part of our culture that's into it, that's into these colorful characters. That's even a cute way of describing them.