The Airpower We Need for Irregular Warfare

Anthony Rock (0:06)

At the delivery of the first F-16, he looked at me and said, General Rock, look what we can do. And my answer was, Sadie, I look at you and I say, this is what you have, not necessarily what you can do. Don't confuse those two things. There's a whole long pathway to operational relevance.

Michael Horowitz (0:25)

We should think about that holistically in the context of the Air Force generation, this distinction between Air Forces and Air Power, and that the most sustainable solution for the partner is a solution that they probably can maintain, or at least that they can maintain with what they will do from a contracting and maintenance perspective rather than what we would do.

Tobias Switzer (0:48)

And so what's most important, I think, is to embrace a different approach for Aviation Security Force assistance in these counter-insurgency and irregular warfare contexts and try to come down off of the gold-plated solutions.

Kyle Atwell (1:05)

Welcome to Episode 166 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Atwell. Today, I'm joined by an exceptionally qualified panel to explore a central question. How can the United States help its partners build the airpower they actually need and sustain it after American forces leave? Drawing on experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan, we examine how militaries adapt to new technology, what kinds of aviation assets America and its partners need for irregular warfare, and why providing equipment is only the beginning when building foreign militaries. The Irregular Warfare Podcast is a joint production of the Empirical Studies of Conflict Project at Princeton University and the Modern War Institute at West Point, dedicated to bridging the gap between scholars and practitioners to support the community of irregular warfare professionals. You can find many more resources at www.irregularwarfare.org.

Support for the Irregular Warfare Podcast comes from Hadean, an AI company focused on synthetic environments for training, planning, and decision support. Support is also provided by Leidos, a company focused on cyber and technology innovation, intelligence analysis, and mission support. You can find more information about both IWI partners in the episode description. Without further ado, here is today's conversation on the role of air power in irregular warfare.

Lieutenant General Anthony Rock led the effort to rebuild and advise the Iraqi Air Force. Mike Horowitz is a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, whose work explains why some military successfully adopt new technologies while others do not. Tobias Switzer, whose new RAND report is the reason we're all here, commanded a Special Operations Advisor team supporting Afghanistan's Special Mission Wing. Tony, Mike and Tobias, welcome to the Irregular Warfare Podcast.

Anthony Rock (2:54)

Thanks a lot, Kyle. I really appreciate the opportunity to discuss these important topics. I wish I would have had this kind of forum and this kind of information before I deployed to Iraq and then eventually to Pakistan.

Michael Horowitz (3:05)

Thanks so much for having us.

Tobias Switzer (3:06)

Yes. Thank you, everybody, for having us. It's an honor to be here with Mike and Tony on the Irregular Warfare Podcast.

Kyle Atwell (3:12)

And Tobias, I also want to highlight that you served as IWI's editorial director, overseeing both the editing and vetting of all written articles published by the organization. And I just want to say thank you on behalf of the community for that work. And we miss having you on the leadership team.

Tobias Switzer (3:26)

Well, thank you. It was a great year. I really love the team. And what I really think is important about IWI is, you know, you guys and your community, I've just continued to beat the drum about the importance of regular warfare. You guys aren't letting this go.

It has never left. It will still be a part of our security across the world. And we need to keep talking about it, figuring things out.

Kyle Atwell (3:47)

Well, it's not you guys. You're still part of the team. It's we guys. You're on board.

So I love this topic because air power appears to have been central to many of America's most significant security force assistance campaigns. I'm thinking places like El Salvador and Colombia and the Philippines. Yet in Iraq and Afghanistan, after investing enormous amounts of money and time, the partner air force has remained heavily dependent on American advisors and contractors. So Tobias, I'll start with you. As a former air force practitioner who transitioned after retirement to doing research, what motivated you to publish this report and why should our listeners care?

Tobias Switzer (4:21)

Yeah, I think the motivation for me is just the importance of leaving lessons learned and some thoughts for the next generation to come. The US. Army, the US. Marine Corps have invested time and money in writing down the histories of their engagements in Iraq and Afghanistan. And to a large extent, the United States Air Force hasn't.