Shortcut: The Backstories of Australia’s Most Colourful Characters

Meshel Laurie (0:04)

This is Australian True Crime with Meshel Laurie, and our guest today describes himself as prison adjacent. John Herbert is a Sydney-based boxing trainer who spent decades running a gym in Maryland, where he worked with young men at risk of heading into crime or prison. His book Crossroads tells the firsthand stories of 13 Australian men whose lives have involved crime, incarceration, sport, and adversity, exploring the pivotal moments that changed the course of their lives and their paths towards redemption.

This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin Nation. And a warning, this episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence.

John Herbert (0:56)

They're tainted with a brush that I don't believe in. Whenever you've done something wrong, you're referred to as that kind of person.

I don't see it as that. People make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. But if you're in, for example, a bike-y lifestyle, you're tainted as that and everyone's the same.

You could be in a bike club, and you've got a bad apple here or a bad apple there, but the whole thing is the whole club's tainted with that same brush as well. I don't agree with that. People also want to know what made that person who was a normal person all of a sudden become this kind of person or that kind of person.

Meshel Laurie (1:44)

Although when you say who was a normal person, have you found, I certainly have, that many offenders have deprived backgrounds, actually, deprived childhoods, that many offenders, and certainly violent offenders, are born into violence and dysfunctional family setups?

John Herbert (2:01)

I totally agree. One person in particular, Joey Dryden, out of all the people that I've met in my life and heard their stories and their upbringings, he has had the most horrific childhood.

It's next to none. We dealt a little bit into it in the book. The things that that poor, as a kid, went through, having to live under a house. That's just horrific and horrid. Walking the streets at the age of 12, just lost. He was a lost kid. You know, and the way he built his life, you know, and he's had to face a lot of challenging times, you know, and then eventually became a biker.

That was a brotherhood. That was the thing that gave him love, gave him hope. That was a culture that brought him in and made him felt wanted and loved, and he got support from him.

Meshel Laurie (2:59)

You know, I'm often criticised for being too soft on offenders or for having, talking to offenders and, you know, being soft on them. But it's hard to hear someone's life story like that and not feel for them and not ask yourself how culpable they are really for their crimes when they've been so mistreated in life.

John Herbert (3:19)

I came from a very loving family. I had wonderful parents, unbelievable parents, whereas a lot of the people in the book didn't have that love and the security from home life. People like Joey, he's a perfect example, just wanted to be loved, just wanted that. He never had it.

So you can understand why some people go off the rails and go in a different direction.

Meshel Laurie (3:44)

Well, also now we know there's neurological reasons. We know the effects that football, for example, has had on some blokes who've taken a lot of head knocks.

Craig Field is a bloke that you talk to in this book, rugby league player. Tell us, I don't know if that's his story, but it just reminded me that you do have a football element to the book Crossroads. Tell us Craig's story.

John Herbert (4:06)

Craig's story is completely different to everyone in the book. He was just caught in a position where he's reacted, made one of those decisions, and it changed his life forever. I've been in that position many, many, many times and I've been lucky. Whereas on this one occasion where, like this event with Craig Field went on for hours inside the pub with one bloke that was just causing trouble, stirring trouble, causing trouble, and then it moved outside. Craig Field actually went to the bottle, got some take away grog, gave it to him, please, can you just leave?

And then his mate ended up in an argument with this other bloke, and then the fight started, and then, yes, Craig's gone in, gone wax, and killed him.

Meshel Laurie (4:57)

Well, yeah, one punch can kill, as we know. It's now grounds for manslaughter, which it wasn't at the time of the David Hicks.