Ryan Holiday on the Case for Stoicism in an Age of Distraction

**Ryan Holiday** (0:00)
I do think about Rome all the time, like Rome is my Roman Empire. It was the center of the world that was the most powerful empire on earth. And so a lot of the predicaments and dilemmas that America is in, a lot of the forces acting on America are the forces that were acting on Rome, just as it was acting on on the Greeks in the Socratic period.

**Kara Swisher** (0:32)
Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. The Greek and Roman philosophy of Stoicism has been around for millennia since the ancient Greeks and Romans, obviously. Anyone who has read Meditations by the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius, has had a taste of it. Generally speaking, Stoicism centers on the ideas of self-control, rational thought, and letting go of the things we cannot control as a means of living a better life. So maybe unsurprisingly, it's finding new resonance in a world where we've lost sight of some of these virtues.
One of the biggest evangelists right now is author and media strategist, Ryan Holiday. He's written around a dozen books on the subject and has a website and popular podcast called The Daily Stoic where he shares meditations, lessons, and interviews inspired by the great Stoic thinkers. Holiday is willing to call out the ways tech leaders, MAGA politicians, and Manosphere influencers are getting it wrong. I think it's important to talk about Stoicism right now because one of the things that Silicon Valley companies I have covered of the years have done is perverted it in a way that I find distressing. At the same time, it's a great way to think about your life and how you want to lead it. We are at a perfect moment in all this chaos to do so, and I think Ryan is an excellent teacher at doing that. All right, let's get to my conversation with Ryan. Our expert question comes from my eldest son, Louis Swisher, who is a fan of the topic. This is a thoughtful conversation with a thoughtful person, so don't go anywhere.
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**Kara Swisher** (3:48)
Ryan, thanks for coming on on.

**Ryan Holiday** (3:49)
Yeah, thanks for having me.

**Kara Swisher** (3:51)
So, there's a lot I want to talk about, about modern stoicism, its appeal to young men, how leaders in tech and politics are getting it wrong.
My first clue, I have four kids, but two of the older boys were carrying around Marcus Aurelius suddenly and I didn't know what was happening, although I was thrilled for them to do so. But to start, what do people get wrong about stoicism?

**Ryan Holiday** (4:11)
Well, I think that the word stoic is unfortunate in the English language just as the word epicurean is. We think an epicurean is a pleasure-loving hedonist, and then we think a stoic is an emotionless robot.

**Kara Swisher** (4:24)
Right, grin and bear it essentially.

**Ryan Holiday** (4:26)
Yeah, which is not what either of the philosophies are about. So, I think the stereotype as the emotionlessness is the big one, and then as stoicism has become popular again here in the 21st century, it's hyper masculine.