Rob Snyder demonstrates his PULL framework in real-time – using Yaniv's startup

**Rob Snyder** (0:00)
I have spent a lot of time writing about the startup pain cave, which is this point where you have hit your head against the wall sufficiently that you realize you've basically, you don't know business anymore. Like you've had that realization. I thought I knew business, clearly I don't. And that like resonates with a lot of people, but that only brings people for my help when they are near death, right?
They are just done. There are many other points in that journey when I can be helpful to people, but most of those points, they do not want help. Their existing options they believe are good enough. And so my task has been to figure out when is the moment in that journey that they are having, when there actually is pull before they are two weeks out of cash, from being out of cash and it finally is hitting them, right?
So that is the task that you would do. But this is not a like, how do we convince them at different points along that journey? It's no, no, no. It's how do we find the points at that journey in which they are convinced and coping?

**Yaniv Bernstein** (1:09)
And if they're not convinced until it's a full blown crisis, then there's not that much we can do to change that.

**Rob Snyder** (1:14)
Every time I've tried to convince somebody to do something earlier, they've said, yeah, thanks.
I'm going to run into this wall myself and then I'll come back to you. Let reality do the convincing.

**Yaniv Bernstein** (1:31)
You're listening to The Startup Podcast.

**Rob Snyder** (1:34)
This is an educational episode.

**Yaniv Bernstein** (1:38)
Hi, I'm Yaniv Bernstein.

**Rob Snyder** (1:40)
Hi, I'm Rob Snyder.

**Yaniv Bernstein** (1:41)
Welcome to a very special episode of The Startup Podcast. A few weeks ago, we had Rob Snyder on to talk about his new book about his pull framework for finding product market fit. And I found it so compelling that I invited him on to do something a bit awkward and a bit vulnerable for me, which is to subject my own startup, Vera, to the pull framework. I thought this would be a really great case study and learning experience. I obviously get a lot out of this myself, but I'm sure everybody listening will be able to take away a lot of lessons on how to apply this framework to their own startup ideas. So I am equal parts nervous and excited to get into this one right after the break.
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Welcome back. Rob Snyder needs no introduction. He was on the podcast just a few weeks ago. He has done all sorts of amazing things in the startup world, and now he has written a book called The Pull Framework. We went through the framework a few weeks ago. So now we're going to apply it straight into Vera.

**Rob Snyder** (3:29)
Let's start just at the most basic thing. What would you like to get out of this?

**Yaniv Bernstein** (3:35)
What would I like to get out of this? Okay. I think I would like to sharpen my understanding of how my product, my startup's product, Vera, fits into this framework.
And where, I guess, where are the weakest points? If you look at the Pull Framework, where are the weakest points in terms of our pathway to product market fit? I think we have a lot of pieces that we understand quite well. We've tried to synthesize them in a number of different ways. And I feel like we're missing a little bit of structure, and I guess rigorous critique of what's missing. You know, I feel like we have a strong understanding of our market. We have a strong ability to execute quickly. And so it's really like, to your point, Rob, when you came on the podcast last time, the idea of the Pull Framework, it is trying to help operationalize finding product market fit step by step, right? And I'm like, okay, I feel like in some ways we're close, in some ways we're not so close. What's my kind of experimental roadmap for getting there?