Polyvagal Theory: Why You Feel So Anxious All The Time - Dr Stephen Porges - #1128

**Chris Williamson** (0:00)
You've authored more than 400 peer-reviewed scientific papers and literally created Polyvagal Theory. It's sort of rare that you get to ask Mike Tyson about how to throw a jab or the founder of a really impactful theory about what it means. I guess, how do you describe Polyvagal Theory to someone who isn't familiar with it?

**Stephen Porges** (0:19)
It's really quite simple. It's that our underlying physiological state affects how we perceive the world, how we interact with others, and how receptacle we are to others engaging us.
So in a sense, we kind of got dropped into a world where we think that all our behaviors are intentional, but we don't acknowledge that some days we feel basically quite constrained and some days we feel very energetic and engaging. The bottom line is that we have to start paying attention to our own underlying physiological state because it will help us navigate through a very complex world.

**Chris Williamson** (0:57)
So we're responsive in that way to the local ecology, kind of like a plant.

**Stephen Porges** (1:01)
We are a plant in a way. Exactly.
We're detecting signals just like plants, we're responding. The difference is that with our great intelligence, we think we caused it all. We create narratives of control when in reality we're being swept away by the challenges of the environment in which we are in. When we feel swept away and overwhelmed, at that point, we start acknowledging things. But we don't acknowledge it until it really gets over a certain threshold.

**Chris Williamson** (1:36)
Why is that adaptive? Why have we evolved to have that dynamic?

**Stephen Porges** (1:40)
Because the world was a dynamically changing place. That's as simple as that. But we've lost some of the, I would say, innate and intuitive skill sets. And that's being aware of when our body loses that resilience. And instead, we're trained by our culture to say, you can do it.
It's like, I mean, that's a quote from The Waterboy, if you don't remember that movie.
But the issue is we live in a world in which everyone thinks we can suppress our feelings or we can get over something when in reality, our body is just percolating and broadcasting signals to our awareness. And now we're being told, don't pay attention.

**Chris Williamson** (2:26)
I understand why.
And this is a pivot in the world of non-fiction communication, personal development, self-growth that I've been really fascinated by. The forget your feelings, just work harder approach. I understand why, because maybe for a lot of people, they're too at the mercy of their feelings. They actually could do with a little bit more agency. They could do with, I can do it. We're in a meritocracy and we want to uphold people. But as you say, it's denying the real dynamic that we are a system that is interacting with our environment.

**Stephen Porges** (3:03)
There are certain things that you're like skimming across the top of, because implicit in what you're saying is you have some idea what being a successful human being is.
What I'm saying is our markers of success may be somewhat confounded because part of being a successful person is feeling good about being a person. Part of the motivation for working is to, in a sense, get over those feelings of inadequacy. We get twisted and tricked by all this.
The other part is that we don't truly acknowledge it as we numb our body out or don't listen to it. We're literally turning off neurophysiological feedback loops. A feedback loop is the part of us that monitors our functioning and the part of us that now creates the motor actions. So in a way, we are destroying our own bodies. Those who work hard acknowledge that. They said, I'm stressed out, I burn out. But there's a physiology to that and that is in part, we're not listening to our body.

**Chris Williamson** (4:09)
That's so wonderful. You're so right.
How many people are chasing success to give themselves the sensation of feeling good, but in the pursuit of achieving the success, they have denied themselves of the feeling of being good.

**Stephen Porges** (4:24)
Yeah. Now, as you say that, listen to what you said.
And there's a circularity there. And then you accumulate, and listen, you're in Austin. So you're in the midst of a lot of what is now the success track.

**Chris Williamson** (4:40)
I'm patient zero. Yeah, this is ground zero right here.

**Stephen Porges** (4:43)
Yeah. And the issue is, yeah, acquisition, wealth, influence, these are wonderful things, but wonderful things for what?
So how do you leverage that successes of acquisition, of respect and accumulation to become more, to do more, to be, in a sense, what are our goals in life? And this is kind of a complicated and very personal question. So are our goals acquisition or our goals curiosity, learning or our goals benevolent and compassionate? No, we can set our goals, but they're not merely here and now.