Plan Your Second Passport Before You Need It | Alex Recouso SLP783

Stephan Livera (0:00)

Hi, everyone, welcome back to Stephan Livera Podcast. We're joining you from Dubai today. Joining me today is Alex Recouso from CitizenX.

People who don't already know Alex, actually I did a podcast with Alex a couple of years ago in Lugano, I think maybe two years ago, I can't remember now. But yeah, it's good to have you back, have you in Dubai.

Alex Recouso (0:20)

Thank you, Stephan.

Stephan Livera (0:21)

So I know you're doing all this work with CitizenX, obviously a Bitcoiner and trying to talk about passports and residencies and all of this stuff.

And of course, being a Bitcoiner savvy form of that, let's say. But let's start with you a little bit on how you got into this, what got you into this idea of doing all the passports and residencies and all that.

Alex Recouso (0:43)

Yeah, it's interesting because I discovered this one when I was 14 years old. But it wasn't until I really understood Bitcoin in 2020, when I realized that it was sort of the missing piece. Bitcoin solved capital mobility and you can move your money freely across borders without asking for permission. But you still need permission to move yourself. So human mobility still depends on citizenship's passports because of the monopoly on violence that nation states have. And there was no easy way to diversify your passport portfolio. I thought that was going to be one of the most important assets for the decade, as more Bitcoiners achieved freedom on the monetary realm.

I thought they would be looking for alternative citizenships, residencies and all of that. And there was really no easy way to do it, that is secure, that is private, that is transparent, and that shares the same principles that many Bitcoiners have. So that's when I decided to start working on this. And now after many years, really happy, really excited to see how we have helped, not just many Bitcoiners, individuals and families, but also trying to do our bidding advice in nation states on how they can accept Bitcoin in exchange for citizenship.

Stephan Livera (2:04)

I see. So you see it like it's almost, well, it is, it's a two-sided market, right? Because you've got the customers, and then of course there's the people who are selling the citizenships or residences. Now, of course, that could be controversial because maybe that's like a bit of a newer thing for people. And I think for some people, nationality, that question can have a lot of stronger, sometimes emotional, sometimes logical reasons for that connection. And maybe people might feel a bit of resistance to that idea of, oh, you're selling my country's passport. How do you see that nowadays?

Alex Recouso (2:38)

Yeah, so back in 2021, I understood Bitcoin. A big component of that was The Sovereign Individual, the book. And as part of The Sovereign Individual thesis, you obviously have private money and Bitcoin, and separating money and state. But you also have the unbundling of the nation state, and how more services from the nation state get privatized as nation states become less and less competent.

I think towards that path is basically productization of citizenship and sovereign goods in general. So you have nation states that compete for these talented, wealthy individuals. And one way to compete to attract this talent and capital is to offer better citizenship services. And many individuals are already demanding second citizenships and additional passports and residences. So as part of that, it's really clear how these nation states can become appealing and can attract. And we have seen this in places like El Salvador, Caribbean countries like San Quinceanibes, Antigua and Barbuda, and more recently with Argentina, how by building an attractive citizenship program and offering citizenship to foreigners, these countries can raise funding and in some ways even accumulate Bitcoin in a budget neutral way.

Stephan Livera (3:57)

Yeah, I see. And I think what a lot of this, it used to be more opaque and it used to be only for the rich, like for the very rich. And I think maybe what's happened is maybe some of this has become a bit more transparent and maybe a little bit more accessible that you didn't have to be this kind of 0.0001% you know, gazillionaire to be able to afford it. So I think that's maybe the broad trend that I've noticed over the decades, let's say, right? Because I think in the early days of I guess now, you know, Katie from the team calls it flag theory, right? I think it used to be called like five-flag or six-flag theory or whatever. And maybe in like the 70s or the 80s. And this is kind of like somewhat libertarian, libertarian adjacent people who are writing about this idea of like have your, you know, your bank account here and your citizenship here and you live here.