Permission To Think Differently - Douglas Murray - #219

**Chris Williamson** (0:00)
Hello, friends, welcome back. My guest today is Douglas Murray, journalist, author and associate editor at The Spectator. His episode last year was one of my favorites from 2019, and oh boy, did he turn it up to 11 today. Gender, race and identity have been the most inflammatory topics of 2020, and Douglas returns today in an effort to throw some sand on the fire of social justice. So expect to learn whether Douglas is bored of talking about identity politics, whether looting is an effective method for political change, whether Ben Shapiro is a better rapper, what Douglas' gym routine looks like and much more. I love speaking to this man, and I already want there to be another international incident or book that he writes so we can get him back on. I really hope that you enjoy the episode as well. I'd love to know what you think. Get at me at ChrisWillX, wherever you follow me, Instagram, Twitter, etc. Other stuff that's happening. The remainder of September is just insane for recording Chris Voss, ex-head of the FBI's International Negotiation Division. Ryan Holiday, multiple time best-selling stoic expert. Bloody hell, who else have we got coming up? Seth Godin, Man Behind Tribes, is just so good. So, I very much hope that you are enjoying all of the episodes that we're putting out because I'm loving these conversations. Also, this week is the return of three episodes a week. So, today and Thursday and Saturday, moving forward for the rest of time. Well, until I snap another Achilles maybe, that will be when we drop back down to two a week. But yes, we're back to three a week for now, which Videogardine is obviously absolutely thrilled about.
But for now, it's time for the wise and wonderful Douglas Murray.

**Douglas Murray** (2:11)
Great to be with you again. It's been a year, probably, yeah.

**Chris Williamson** (2:16)
One year, one year since we spoke, and it feels like-

**Douglas Murray** (2:18)
And you've done your ceiling.

**Chris Williamson** (2:20)
I've done my ceiling. So all of the people on the internet that were complaining and saying, was that mold on the ceiling? It wasn't, it was candle-sut. I went through a period where I loved Yankee candles for a while, but we're out the other side. But yeah, it was only a year ago, which feels like 75 years ago.

**Douglas Murray** (2:35)
Doesn't adjust, doesn't adjust. We're both looking okay despite that. I'd like to think so.

**Chris Williamson** (2:42)
I mean, I've lost an Achilles, but that's really the only thing that's gone wrong. So at the end of 2019, when The Madness Of Crowds came out, I asked you what chapters you could have added, which you omitted, and you said mental health and green. What's your answer in 2020?

**Douglas Murray** (3:00)
I think I'd stay with that. Green in particular has been really doing well in the Lunatic Olympics.
They've got a whole new wardrobe of lunacy. They've got new makeup that shows they're mad. They actually dressed to say I'm mad. So I do feel still a bit annoyed that I never did the green chapter. But as I say, there's an awful lot of material in those guys and girls. I would observe simply though that since we last spoke, everything I write about in The Madness Of Crowds, everything I do put in on gay, on women, on race, and on trans has just... Which I could see coming. It was why I was trying to warn people about it. But goodness, particularly in the last few months, so much more than I ever feared could happen this fast.

**Chris Williamson** (4:08)
Do you feel vindicated that you got it right or sad that it occurred as you prophesied?

**Douglas Murray** (4:12)
You know, I don't like vindication all that much.

**Chris Williamson** (4:15)
I mean, you should try it sometime.

**Douglas Murray** (4:17)
Yeah, I mean, it's always nice when people point it out, but it actually doesn't feel that great that because if you say, look, here's this terrible thing that's coming towards you, and then it happens anyway, you know, you feel like maybe you didn't warn well enough or you didn't warn clearly enough or something like that. But I might be overdoing what you can achieve in warning. But, you know, I do feel that those of us, and there are a number of us who said, look, dig down into these identity traits things and you won't heal society. You'll make it more discombobulated and eventually you'll make it more divided. And you're not going to solve it, you're going to make it worse. You know, a number of us said that, but, you know, too many people thought, no, we love the sound of the apocalypse you're talking about. Let's get there faster. Let's take the fast route.