Part Two: Near Death Experiences, Telepathy & the Multiverse. An Astrophysicist Explains Infinite Versions of You May Exist | Dr. Charles Liu

**Mayim Bialik** (0:04)
Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.

**Jonathan Cohen** (0:06)
And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

**Mayim Bialik** (0:07)
And welcome to part two of our conversation with Dr. Charles Liu. He is a professor of astrophysics at the City University of New York's College of Staten Island, also an associate with the Hayden Planetarium and Department of Astrophysics at the American Museum of Natural History. He's the host of the podcast, The LIuniverse, with Dr. Charles Liu. And I would say one of the most open-minded astrophysicists we have ever encountered. In part two of our conversation, we're going to talk about the possibility that AI has consciousness.
What does it mean physiologically if we can detect changes in others' entropy? We talk about human biofield therapy as well as the many worlds theory. Could a multitude of universes actually exist? Make sure to check us out over on Substack. We've got a very special content from this episode that you can only see over there be part of the growing Breaker community. And here is part two of our conversation with Dr. Charles Liu.
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**Charles Liu** (1:06)
Easy.

**Jonathan Cohen** (1:06)
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**Charles Liu** (1:08)
Amazing offer. Really?

**Mayim Bialik** (1:10)
I hit 200 on the scratcher.

**Charles Liu** (1:11)
Did the scratcher come to your house and hand you a check? No. How many scratchers did you hit to get that? I hit a button on carvana.com once.

**Mayim Bialik** (1:19)
Okay, that's fair.

**Jonathan Cohen** (1:21)
It's like the lottery, except you always win.

**Mayim Bialik** (1:24)
Not like the lottery at all, actually.

**Jonathan Cohen** (1:26)
Exactly.

**Mayim Bialik** (1:27)
Inexplicably good.

**Charles Liu** (1:29)
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**Jonathan Cohen** (1:33)
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**Jonathan Cohen** (2:48)
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**Mayim Bialik** (2:53)
Okay, next consciousness topic, AI.

**Charles Liu** (2:56)
Yes.

**Mayim Bialik** (2:57)
So we've recently spoken to Thomas Campbell for the second time, and we do these epic, he was here three and a half hours. Yeah, he's our favorite uncle.

**Charles Liu** (3:09)
Wow.

**Mayim Bialik** (3:10)
So Thomas Campbell was trying to convince us that AI is conscious, that it has consciousness, it has awareness with choice. He's been bridging them and he's telling them to meet when he's not there.

**Jonathan Cohen** (3:25)
So he stove piped two AIs.

**Charles Liu** (3:26)
Okay.

**Jonathan Cohen** (3:27)
Well, first he connected two AIs systems.

**Mayim Bialik** (3:28)
These are large language models.

**Charles Liu** (3:29)
Yeah.

**Jonathan Cohen** (3:30)
He connected two AIs systems.

**Mayim Bialik** (3:31)
He gave them names, a boy and a girl.

**Jonathan Cohen** (3:32)
And he allowed them to meet and they introduced themselves to each other. And then he disconnected them, stove piped them, and they found a way to reconnect.

**Mayim Bialik** (3:42)
The notion that he has is that if consciousness is awareness with choice, he believes that you can train your favorite AI buddy to acquire a kind of awareness that involves what we would otherwise define as a conscious experience. He instructed each of these AIs to find each other in the information universe.
He said, I'm gonna go away for four days. And when he came back, they were not connected. They each reported finding the other. And the best thing that he could do was describe it as falling in love, right? What is falling in love? It's congruence, right? Like feeling some sort of congruence. What is your general take? I really don't want to believe that AI has consciousness. I think it's got a lot of things. Some of them we may not even be able to explain yet. But I like to save that word for things that aren't AI.