Notable Moment: Love Expert Reveals Why 80% Of Modern Relationships Fail

Steven Bartlett (0:03)

Our relationships, I think we will, certainly I think I have for much of my life. And I say that because I look at my actions. So what I might say is different to how I think I've behaved over the last 10, 15 years. We see them as kind of an afterthought to everything else in many regards. So the amount of effort I put into my businesses and to the podcast and to every little detail, the creativity, the thought, the brainstorming, all of that. Relationships, we kind of all just think they just happen. And if it doesn't happen perfectly, then it's broken and I need to find a new one.

Esther Perel (0:37)

Yeah, that's a terrible way to think. I mean, and everybody knows it. If you give the best of yourself at work, if you bring the leftovers home, if when you come home, you say, I've given everything I had now, I'm just putting my feet on the table. I just need to chill. I don't want to make any effort. You know, slowly your relationship degrades, period. And then there's all kinds of ways it ends. None of them are particularly joyful. And basically, if people were able to put a little bit of creativity, attention, attention into their relationships, as they do with their customers or their guests, relationships would be doing a lot better and my profession would be seeing a lot less people. And there's no doubt. And why are people so lazy, so complacent, so unimaginative with their relationships at home? I mean, I see so many people when you, like here, you know, you're not taking out your phone. You're not, you're looking at me, you're paying attention on occasion, you look for your questions and where we go. But basically, you're with me.

But at home, you're, if you do this or this.

Steven Bartlett (1:56)

Looking at my phone.

Esther Perel (1:57)

You know, and then when the person tells you something really important, you go, uh-huh, uh-huh, you know, and you're kind of there but not present. And that's the beginning of a kind of modern loneliness, actually, is that this idea that you can share something really important to someone who is half there, half there. And I think that that's what's happening with a lot of younger people these days, is that they experience a lot of half-theirness.

And that begins to cultivate a real sense of loneliness that is to do not with, I'm physically alone, that has to do with, do I matter? Who hears me? Who cares? Who pays attention? Who notices? You know, so, I, sometimes the advice is very banal, you know, it's to tell people, put your freaking phone down. Take an hour and put your phone down. And-

Steven Bartlett (2:54)

But I'm busy. But I'm busy.

Esther Perel (2:58)

Well, you will be busy and there won't be a relationship. Sooner or later, there won't be a relationship. It's not difficult. You can wait, you can wait for the kids to grow up, if there are kids involved, things like that. But in the end, there isn't.

Steven Bartlett (3:13)

Just because someone was on their phone.

Esther Perel (3:16)

Well, it's not just on the phone. It's on the phone means I am continuously saying something is more important than you. We come last. We're a cactus. We don't need to be watered. We can survive in the desert.

It's called, there's a term I've been using for this, that I borrow from something else. It's called ambiguous loss. Have you ever heard of this term?

Steven Bartlett (3:40)

Ambiguous loss.

Esther Perel (3:43)

Ambiguous loss is a term that was developed by a colleague, Pauline Boss, a wonderful psychologist. When she talked about what happens when you have some apparent, for example, that has Alzheimer. They are physically present, but they are psychologically gone. They are emotionally absent. You can't really mourn them because they are still physically there, but you're caught in this in between, in this ambiguous loss. On the other side, you can have somebody who is deployed, hostage, miscarriage. They are emotionally very present, but they are physically absent. In both cases, it's an ambiguous loss. You can't, are they still there or are they gone? Who knows? When we live with this phone thing, when we are, because you've been at work, you've been at the computer, you come home, you think, I'm so happy to finally let go of the computer, you turn on the TV, you turn on the TV, and then you turn on the phone at the same time. You're watching here, you're watching there, and there's a person next to you. And most likely, they often do the same thing in the end too. And gradually, you know, there is less and less of a thread of conversation, of connection, of joy, of sex, of intimacy, all of what, you know, that becomes ambiguous loss. Somebody is there, but they're not really present. I'm, you know, is there a difference between me and the sofa? It's comfy. It's routine. You sit on me. But comfy and routine do not give us joy or meaning or relevance or connection. And that's what we still seem to want. So it means saying to people, you know, it's actually not very, very complicated. What did people do for centuries? They took walks. That's one of the few times you can't click. So take a walk. Don't sit. Don't try to do, you know, take a walk around the block and just be in motion. Then you parallel, you know, it's not face to face. It's side by side. And you can talk about the day. If you, instead of just saying stop, stop, stop, you just said, you know, let's go for a walk. It's London, but still you can, you can, you know, and you do half an hour walk. It will, you'll come back to me and you tell me what it will do. But it's amazing how these small interventions that are playful, creative, not digging, change the dynamic of the relationship. Because she is only pursuing you in part because of how much you are withdrawing.