New York Governor Kathy Hochul thinks AI should be ‘less evil’

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**Nilay Patel** (1:52)
Hello, and welcome to Decoder. I'm Nilay Patel, Editor-in-Chief of The Verge, and Decoder is my show about big ideas and other problems. Today, I'm talking with New York Governor Kathy Hochul. I'm just going to warn you, this episode moves really fast. It's an election year, after all, with a shocking amount of tech policy at stake.
Governor Hochul has taken strong positions on almost every major tech issue there is. For example, Meta just reached a settlement with dozens of states including New York. Which will ultimately restrict how teens use platforms like Instagram in very specific ways. Governor Hochul is a strong supporter of those restrictions and more, as you'll hear. But restrictions like that come with a cost. Widespread age verification means that adults will also have to show ID to use the internet, which will essentially make it impossible to be anonymous online. So I asked about that. And if these new restrictions amount to Meta conceding in a lawsuit, to the kinds of regulations on speech and when people can speak, it might not pass First Amendment scrutiny if the governor were to try and impose them in a law. I had similar questions about New York's restrictions on ghost guns, which prevent 3D printers from printing gun parts. That law is already being challenged, but not in the courts. Instead, it's by activists like Cody Wilson, who runs the largest database of 3D printable gun files and who has started altering those files in a process he calls Hoculization in order to show that the ban is technically toothless. I asked the governor about this, and well, you're going to hear her challenge Cody right back. There's more. We also talked about surveillance and flock cameras, and of course, the politics of AI in data centers in an election year. Governor Hocul signed a one-year moratorium on data center construction in July. I wanted to know what she's looking for when that expires to make data centers a workable proposition. We also talked a little bit about Mayor Mamdani in New York City, and of course, her org chart for the state government. This one is a lot. I think you're going to like it. Okay, New York Governor Kathy Hochul. Here we go.
Governor Kathy Hochul, you're the governor of New York. Welcome to Decoder.

**Kathy Hochul** (3:42)
Thank you. Happy to be on.

**Nilay Patel** (3:43)
I have so much to talk to you about. We don't have a ton of time, so we're going to move fast. Are you up for it?

**Kathy Hochul** (3:48)
I'm up.

**Nilay Patel** (3:48)
All right. I want to start with what I call the Decoder questions, lightning round style. I think the operation of your office in state government is really opaque to most people. I ask everybody this question.
How is the governor's office structured? How did you make decisions about how to structure that office? How did you organize it?

**Kathy Hochul** (4:07)
Governor at the top, then there's a leadership team, senior leadership team, there's a secretary to the governor who is the top advisor. It sounds like the person taking notes at meetings, but the secretary of the governor's most powerful, non-elected position in the state.
What I did when I first became governor, five years ago last week, I said I want the smartest, the best, the brightest people I could surround myself. I didn't know a lot of these individuals, but they are highly recommended from having either business experience, government experience, technological experience. I said bring me the smartest. So there's a layer of senior team members.