Meet Warren Zanes, the Author and Rocker Behind the Springsteen Movie | Better in Person

**Stephen Dubner** (0:00)
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Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner. And this bonus episode comes from our new TV talk show called Better in Person. To get the full video experience, go to the Freakonomics YouTube channel, or you can look for Better in Person on Apple podcasts.
Our guest this week is Warren Zanes. Don't worry if you've never heard of him. By the time you're finished, you will feel like you've known Warren your whole life.
As always, thanks for listening.

**Warren Zanes** (0:44)
I knew never self-reference ever. So, my first.

**Stephen Dubner** (0:52)
That's all I got, Warren. That's all I got.
This is Better in Person with Stephen Dubner and Warren Zanes.
If you've ever chased a dream, the kind of dream that would rearrange your life, you may have wondered, what if it comes true? But also, what happens if it falls apart? Warren Zanes has lived both sides of that dream. In the 1980s, he joined the Del Fuegos, a Boston rock and roll band that was started by his big brother, Dan. They put out a few good records. For Warren especially, things did not end well. But over time, he would mount an amazing comeback as a rock and roll scholar. He wrote an intimate biography of Tom Petty and an even more intimate book about Bruce Springsteen that was recently turned into a film. I knew Warren and his band way back when because I was in my own band, the right profile. For a good while, it was really the only thing I cared about. There was this one night in Greensboro, North Carolina, the Del Fuegos were playing two sets in a bar. I went to see them. Between sets, we were hanging out in the back room, and in walks, Bruce Springsteen.

**Warren Zanes** (2:00)
When Bruce came to the Rhinoceros Club in 85

**Stephen Dubner** (2:05)
You're still touring your first record.

**Warren Zanes** (2:07)
Yep, touring the first. We were coming down from Boston, going down the Eastern seaboard, and then across the Southwest to LA. So, for us, the biggest tour yet.

**Stephen Dubner** (2:18)
Okay.

**Warren Zanes** (2:19)
Biggest tour, still small spaces, but a moment of great promise. It's your first record.
You're seeing things you haven't seen before.

**Stephen Dubner** (2:29)
How were you feeling about that record at that moment?

**Warren Zanes** (2:32)
One part of us felt like we just made beggars banquet.
Another part of us worried that we made something terrible. Flip-flopping between the extremes. This night, it was a night off for Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band. We knew that. How did you know that? Because we listened to the radio. You're touring, you're listening to rock radio. At that point in time, Born in the USA is on its third single. He is a global superstar. It's Madonna, Prince, Bruce in that moment. Just huge acts.
We were in the dressing room, you were there, and Nils Lofgren came in.

**Stephen Dubner** (3:19)
Right.

**Warren Zanes** (3:20)
It was like, wow, a member of the E Street Band.

**Stephen Dubner** (3:24)
Did he have a guitar?

**Warren Zanes** (3:26)
He didn't have a guitar. We got a backup guitar too very quickly though, and we were talking about what songs he could do on stage. Dressing room door opens, Bruce Springsteen comes in and he said, I got your album, Backseat Nothing is my favorite song.
We were speechless and-

**Stephen Dubner** (3:48)
You were also probably super high though, right? To be fair.

**Warren Zanes** (3:53)
I mean, that probably from 10 AM that day, through the time we went to bed.

**Stephen Dubner** (3:59)
Right.

**Warren Zanes** (4:00)
That's the kind of shape we were in. But we had a lot of youthful energy where it was, I'm not going to advocate for that particular chemical mix, but it was working for us right then.

**Stephen Dubner** (4:15)
Also, just to say, you've been sober for 30 some years now.

**Warren Zanes** (4:20)
Yeah, 32 years.

**Stephen Dubner** (4:21)
Congratulations.

**Warren Zanes** (4:22)
Not drinking and drugging. Some of my kids have never seen me. Like you saw me that night, Bruce Springsteen came to play with us. Yeah.

**Stephen Dubner** (4:31)
So Bruce walks in. I recall that he was actually singing the song or humming the song. Do you recall that or no?

**Warren Zanes** (4:37)
I love that deep. I'm going to use it from here on out.

**Stephen Dubner** (4:40)
Can I tell you, when you guys had your first record out, we had maybe just signed with your management group. That's how I knew you guys.