Luca Ferrari on Building Bending Spoons: Extreme Ownership, Talent Science & Relentless Simplification

David Senra (0:02)

So, we're going to start this episode in a locked-in stance, because we've just been talking off-camera, and I was like, god damn it, we need to start recording immediately. I didn't even want to think to start here, but you noticed the AppLovin mug, and then you're like, oh, Ferugi, and then you laughed. What do you think of Adam Ferugi?

Luca Ferrari (0:16)

Well, it's great. I mean, uniquely focused, ruthless, and I mean it in a positive way when there's a goal, goes for it, very rational, effective.

I mean, 10 out of 10 on that in those areas, I think.

David Senra (0:33)

So when I published the episode that I did with him, I think I titled it like the best founder no one's ever heard of, because at the time he was running like, I don't know, like $150 billion market cap company with like 400 employees, and they're printing like $6 billion in cash. And he kind of lays out exactly like his, we were talking about fanaticism before we started recording. It's like he's just fanatical. It's like success of his company goes before almost anything. No, it does go before almost anything in his life. He's just completely obsessed and committed to essentially like excellence. I think you share that trait with him. So we had lunch together probably six months ago. I talked to you right after, I was like, man, you got to do the show because I know a lot of founders. I don't know any other founders that think like you. One of the things that you said that I think everything else, all the other ideas flow from this is that you want to be the best in the world at what you do, even if that's not possible. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Luca Ferrari (1:23)

I've always been kind of polarized in my interests.

I either choose to do something and then I'll try to match that out, try to be the best or part of the best team, or I will try not to do it at all. Or if it really has to be done, then I'll literally try to just check the boxes for minimum commitment, but all sorts of rewards, emotional and material, are at extremes. I think I have a close to 10 out of 10 relationship with my wife. I think to me that's worth 100 times more than having an adequate relationship with my wife. Same with my job and my colleagues, trying to build the best company there ever was.

And we understand that's aspirational and likely nearly impossible. But I think if we get close to that accomplishment, the rewards, the fulfillment, the satisfaction, the learning along the way, financial rewards will be just exponentially greater than just doing well enough. And so I think you have limited time and energy. You want to find one or very few pursuits, or to try to go all out and everything else, keep it, you know, eliminate if you can, or keep it at a bare minimum.

David Senra (2:43)

So you just said you're trying to build the best company there ever was?

Luca Ferrari (2:47)

Yeah, just again, aspirationally. Don't take it, it's not meant to be arrogant. I know we have a very slim chance, but just, you know, waking up in the morning and thinking, we're not building a nice church, or trying to build the greatest cathedral that anybody has ever built. That's a lot more exciting to me. Gets you further, it's more fun, energizing. Better people will want to work with you. And I think one of the big ways in which life is interesting is running yourself with amazing people, better people than you are, if possible.

David Senra (3:14)

Do your co-founders feel the same way?

Luca Ferrari (3:16)

I mean, you'd have to ask them. I think we probably, for the most part, I'd say, yeah.

David Senra (3:21)

But is this something that you guys repeat to each other, like throughout the company, you're trying to build the best company ever?

Luca Ferrari (3:25)

We're not big on founders. I know this is maybe ironic to say, you know, given your podcast, but we try to eliminate the idea of founder from this company as much as possible.

We think it distracts people from the company. The company is the center, and whether you're a founder or you joined a little bit later, all that matters is your contribution, your trajectory. The people at the company, those at least I know the best and with whom I work the closest, regardless of whether they're founders, I think broadly they share this ambition. So yes, but it's not necessarily a founder thing. It's more of a Bending Spoons thing.