Lessons from Napoleon, Steve Jobs, Joan of Arc & Other Leaders | Ben Wilson

David Senra (0:00)

Ben Wilson has stage four cancer and four small kids. I wanted to have him on the podcast to talk about his work on the How To Take Over The World podcast, which is, in my opinion, one of the best podcasts ever created, and to talk about what it's like dealing with terminal cancer at such a young age. I also want to ask you for help in any way that you can. Ben is a good man and he's been dealt a bad hand. Please watch this podcast and see if you can help with medicine, introductions or donations. It doesn't matter if you have $5 to spare or $5,000, and any little bit can help Ben's family through this devastating time. He's a good guy and a close friend. Please help in any way that you can.

All right. Talk to me about zeal.

Ben Wilson (0:41)

Zeal is a word that we all use, right? So nowadays zeal means that you are-

David Senra (0:45)

Of course we all use? No. I don't think it's in everybody's everyday vocabulary.

Ben Wilson (0:49)

Well, it means you get excited about something, right? You're jealous for something, but it had a very specific definition to the ancient Greeks. So Aristotle defined zeal as a type of pain. It is felt by someone when they see another who is like them in nature, who has accomplished good or admirable things that the other person is capable of, but has not yet achieved. You can see it in a lot of famous historical people. So one of my favorite stories of zeal is Thomas Edison. He's 21 years old.

He's a telegraph operator, young, smart guy. Those are kind of like the programmers, tech, guys of their age. And he's reading this biography of Michael Faraday, who is an inventor from the generation before.

And he's reading the biography of Faraday.

His roommate goes to bed. His roommate wakes up in the morning, and Edison is just finishing the biography. He stayed up all night reading this biography of Michael Faraday. Slams shut the biography, throws it on the table, and says, Faraday accomplished so much. I am already 21 years old. I might live to be 50 Can I accomplish as much as he did? I am going to hustle. That's what he says, I'm going to hustle. I love that line. And so he really felt this pain, because he recognized someone who was like him, Faraday, who had accomplished so much more than he had. And so he wanted to compete with him across the generations. And you see that same story play out with Julius Caesar, looking at Alexander the Great. You see it with Rockefeller, and kind of the generation that came before, Amos Lawrence is the first person that he really aspires to be like. And so it's a very unique source of inspiration, zeal of seeing someone who came before you and wanting to compete with them because they accomplished so much, but is very common among the great achievers across all domains.

David Senra (2:43)

Yeah, I love the fact that anytime you read biographies of Edison, he's obsessed with the word hustle.

When he invented the phonograph, he was talking to some guy and the guy's like, hey, if you could hear any historical figures voice, you know, it's long since dead, who would you choose? And the guy asked the question, he's like, well, I would choose Jesus. And Edison's like, I would choose Napoleon. And he's like, why Napoleon? He goes, I like the hustler.

Ben Wilson (3:03)

I like the hustler. Yeah.

David Senra (3:06)

So what are some other examples of zeal? Like, how do you think about the work that you do personally? Because you're studying people with zeal. I guess we should back up and give some people some context.

I've been telling people for years that I think you're one of the best podcasters in the world. How To Take Over The World is another solo history podcast. I think there's a lot of overlap between the work that you did with How To Take Over The World and the work that I did with founders. And so we wind up, you know, studying a lot of the same people, reading a lot of the same books. We've been texting back and forth for years about book recommendations. But like, I understand the presence of zeal in these historical figures.

I see it just like you do when I read these books. But like, how do you think about in your own life then?

Ben Wilson (3:46)

Well, two things. I mean, I think I've made it sort of my life mission to help people with that, right? Because you need to find people who are like you in character in order to have that sort of connection. So for example, if I read about Leonardo da Vinci, amazing story, I love it, I can learn a lot. But fundamentally, I don't feel that sense of zeal because his brain is so different from mine. It's like studying an alien. I could just never do what he did.