Land your dream job in today’s market: negotiation tactics, job search councils, and more | Phyl Terry (Author, “Never Search Alone”)

**Phyl Terry** (0:00)
When you're looking for a job, you need a spear and not a neck. What happens when we're building a product?

**Lenny Rachitsky** (0:05)
Same thing, right?

**Phyl Terry** (0:05)
We want this product to be for everyone, but we've learned with product market fit that doesn't work. We need a narrow, clear focus.

**Lenny Rachitsky** (0:12)
How did you realize this is a really powerful method versus the way people normally look for jobs?

**Phyl Terry** (0:16)
Well, it's hard to figure out your candidate market fit. It's also a relief to know it's not about you. So what I ask people to do is I ask them to think about what they want and what they don't want. Now, you might not think that that's a radical step, Lenny, but most people don't do that. When they get laid off, they spray and pray.

**Lenny Rachitsky** (0:31)
This is very much like a product person thinks about new products.

**Phyl Terry** (0:34)
There's no I in team. Well, there is an I in village. And the I in village is that when you start to interview and negotiate, you've got to be in charge. I want you to play to win, not not to lose.

**Lenny Rachitsky** (0:44)
Is there anything else that you think might be helpful to people looking for a job?

**Phyl Terry** (0:49)
If someone did this, it would blow my mind. I would hire them on the spot.

**Lenny Rachitsky** (0:57)
Today, my guest is Phyl Terry. Phyl is the author of Never Search Alone, which I've seen so many people reference as the most impactful thing they read for helping them find a job. Once you listen to this episode, you'll see why. Prior to this book, Phyl was on the founding team of the first company that Amazon acquired back in the 90s, and then was CEO of the pioneering product and customer experience consulting firm Creative Good for over 15 years, where Phyl and the team had companies like Apple, Facebook, Microsoft, and hundreds of other companies as customers. Phyl also co-authored Customers Included, has written articles for the Harvard Business Review, and has delivered more than 500 keynotes to companies like Apple and Microsoft. This episode is for anyone struggling to find a job, or unhappy in the job that they are in. I promise you, the time you put into listening to this episode will help you find a job that you love. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you Phyl Terry. Phyl, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

**Phyl Terry** (2:05)
Oh, what a pleasure. I'm such a fan of yours, Lenny. I'm thrilled to be here, thank you.

**Lenny Rachitsky** (2:10)
I'm a huge fan of yours, and I think by the end of this, I'll be an even bigger fan of yours. What I'm hoping that we can do in our chat today is to help people who are struggling to find a job, and especially struggling to find a job they love, actually find that job with actual tips that they can use today in this week. How does that feel to you?

**Phyl Terry** (2:29)
That's great. We have some practical time-tested stuff that I've developed over the last 25 years with leaders in Silicon Valley, especially in the product community. We've really brought a product lens to reinventing the job search, Lenny.

**Lenny Rachitsky** (2:40)
This is a perfect Venn diagram of topics then. There's a lot of ways I can approach this. I want to start with a question about something that you run, something that you created, something that has had a lot of impact on a lot of people, job search councils. What is a job search council?

**Phyl Terry** (2:56)
It's a support group of six to eight job seekers, right? So product people. It's not just for product people, but the product community really owns this.

**SPEAKER_3** (3:05)
It comes out of the product community.

**Phyl Terry** (3:07)
What they do is they commit to being with each other, to supporting each other, go through the process of looking for a job, and figuring out some of the, and I lay out a methodology, how to figure out your candidate market fit, one of the big concepts in the book, as well as how to play to win, not not to lose. You know what I mean? People are scared in the job search. Here's the thing, Lenny, that people really have a hard time, really have a hard time believing.