John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024

**Friedberg** (0:00)
Hey everybody, Friedberg here. What you're about to hear is a panel discussion from our All-In Summit recorded in LA on September 10th. We're going to publish some of the best conversations once a week over the next month. If you want to see all the talks, subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/atall-in, and follow us on X at the All-In Pod.

**SPEAKER_2** (0:21)
One of the most influential and controversial thinkers in the world.

**SPEAKER_3** (0:26)
He is known as one of the world's leading experts on economic development.

**SPEAKER_2** (0:32)
One of the most famous political scientists in history.

**John Mearsheimer** (0:41)
We're talking about moral and political principles here.

**Jeffrey Sachs** (0:44)
I would suggest that all four wars could be ended quickly.

**John Mearsheimer** (0:48)
Great power politics is now back on the table.

**Jeffrey Sachs** (0:51)
If we are anything as a world community, we have to implement what we've said.

**David Sacks** (1:06)
I'm excited for this panel. We're going to talk about foreign policy. We have, I think, two of the most interesting, eminent, renowned thinkers about foreign policy, Professor John Mearsheimer from University of Chicago and Professor Jeffrey Sachs from Columbia. So great to have you guys here today. It's a big world and there's a lot of things happening, so let's just jump into it. The big news over the past week was that Dick Cheney endorsed Kamala Harris for president. I think for people who see the world in partisan political terms, this might have been surprising, but I don't think that you guys were that surprised by that. Do you see an underlying logic to this? Jeff, why don't I start with you?

**Jeffrey Sachs** (1:51)
I think it's obvious. There's basically one deep state party, and that is the party of Cheney, Harris, Biden, Victoria Nuland, my colleague at Columbia University now. Nuland is the face of all of this because she has been in every administration for the last 30 years. She was in the Clinton administration wrecking our policies towards Russia in the 1990s. She was in the Bush administration junior with Cheney, wrecking our policies towards NATO enlargement. She was in then the Obama administration as Hillary's spokesperson first, and then making a coup in Ukraine in February 2014 Not a great move. Started a war. Then she was Biden's undersecretary of state. Now, that's both parties.
It's a colossal mess, and she's been Cheney's advisor, she's been Biden's advisor, she makes perfect sense. This is the reality. We're trying to find out if there's another party. That's the big question.

**David Sacks** (3:11)
John, what's your thought on that? Do you see any difference between Republicans and Democrats?

**John Mearsheimer** (3:15)
No, I like to refer to the Republicans and the Democrats as Tweedledee and Tweedledum.
It's hardly any difference. I actually think the one exception is that former President Trump, when he became president in 2017, was bent on beating back the deep state and becoming a different kind of leader on the foreign policy front. But he basically failed. And he is vowed that if he gets elected this time, it will be different and he will beat back the deep state. He will pursue a foreign policy that's fundamentally different than Republicans and Democrats have pursued up to now. And the big question on the table is whether or not you think Trump can beat the deep state and these two established parties. And I'd bet against Trump.

**SPEAKER_7** (4:08)
John, and Jeff, but let's start with John. Can you actually define for us, for me, I don't understand when people say deep state, what it is. I almost viewed the term comically. We have one of our friends in our group chat who we call deep state, who's really in the deep state. But we say it as a joke. But for maybe the uninitiated, what does it actually mean? What are their incentives? Who are they?
Jeff, maybe you want to start or John, you want to start?

**John Mearsheimer** (4:37)
Yeah, I'll say a few words about it. When we talk about the deep state, we're talking really about the administrative state. It's very important to understand that starting in the late 19th, early 20th century, given developments in the American economy, it was imperative that we develop, and this was true of all Western countries, a very powerful central state that could run the country. Over time, that state has grown in power. Since World War II, the United States, as you all know, has been involved in every nook and cranny of the world, fighting wars here, there, and everywhere. And to do that, you need a very powerful administrative state that can help manage that foreign policy. But in the process, what happens is you get all of these high-level bureaucrats, middle-level and low-level bureaucrats, who become established in positions in the Pentagon, the State Department, the intelligence community, you name it.