Jean Smart bids farewell to ‘Hacks’

**Terry Gross** (0:00)
This is Fresh Air, I'm Terry Gross. The HBO series Hacks is nominated for 24 Emmys. That's a record-breaking number for a comedy series in a single year. It finished its fifth and final season this past spring. Our guest is the show's star, Jean Smart. She spoke with guest interviewer Aarti Shahani. Aarti is a veteran NPR journalist, host of the podcast Art of Power, and author of the memoir Here We Are.
Here's Aarti.

**Aarti Shahani** (0:29)
Jean Smart is on the cusp of making TV history. The star of the hit show Hacks has been nominated again for outstanding lead actress in a comedy series. She won in that category for every previous season of Hacks. The show is about two female comedians, one at the start of her career, the other, played by Jean Smart, at the purported end of hers. While they can't stand each other at first, they are also ravenously ambitious.
That is what fuels a zany journey that becomes about the creative process, chosen family, and finding love for a person whose worldview is antithetical to yours. Today, hack star Jean Smart returns to Fresh Air to talk about her iconic role as the character Deborah Vance, and also her life's work. Smart has previously won Emmys for her performances on the shows Frasier and Samantha Who. Her first claim to fame was starring in the 1980 sitcom Designing Women.
She's performed in dramas like Fargo, Watchmen, and Mare of Easttown, and also on Broadway.
She is a real unicorn in Hollywood, a mainstream female actor who has spent decades on the screen in many stories focused on women's relationships with each other, not with a man at the center. Jean Smart, welcome back to Fresh Air.

**Jean Smart** (1:52)
Thank you. Happy to be here.

**Aarti Shahani** (1:54)
I want to start with one of my favorite episodes in all of TV history. I've watched a lot of TV. Yes, seriously.

**Jean Smart** (2:03)
Chuckles the Clown?

**Aarti Shahani** (2:08)
You did it. In season five of Hacks, your character Deborah Vance is preparing to do her big comeback show at Madison Square Garden.
She gets it in her head that she just needs to wear this iconic beaded white jumpsuit that was worn by her comedy hero, Carol Burnett. The problem is that the current owner is another female comedian who is a lesbian, and she and Deborah have bad blood, in part because Deborah has said some very homophobic things in the past to her.
Now Deborah is trying to butter up the jumpsuit owner to get her to sell it. The owner lives in a dream home in Montecino with her super hot younger girlfriend. They've invited Deborah to come spend the weekend. Deborah shows up with her business partner and young protege, Ava Daniels, and once they arrive, Deborah tells Ava, Oh, you're going to pretend to be my lesbian lover over the weekend so we can endear ourselves to the host and get the jumpsuit. Ava, who is queer herself, is furious. Let's hear the clip.

**Maureen Corrigan** (3:15)
Deborah, this is insane. I am not pretending to be a lesbian couple with you.

**Jean Smart** (3:19)
I need that jumpsuit. Please, it means a lot to me. I guess it wouldn't be too bad to spend some time with the wife. Call me Chandler because I'm going to Monica. You're my girlfriend. Do not flirt with her and blow up my spot. You and I are in a committed loving relationship.
You're sleeping in the tub.

**Maureen Corrigan** (3:37)
I am not sleeping in the tub.

**Jean Smart** (3:39)
Okay? You know what?

**Maureen Corrigan** (3:40)
If you want me to do this, you got to give me $1,000.

**Aarti Shahani** (3:45)
Your reaction, Jean Smart, the first time you read that scene?

**Jean Smart** (3:51)
Oh, my God. It was funny because it was so clever.
Because it was the first time in the entire series that we've seen Deborah completely at Ava's mercy and at a loss for words. She couldn't say anything to defend herself. So Ava just took full advantage and said and did all these dreadful things.

**Aarti Shahani** (4:16)
Yeah, it was such a great role reversal.

**Jean Smart** (4:19)
Oh, my God.

**Aarti Shahani** (4:20)
It was so much fun that episode for all of the reversal going on. I remember watching Deborah in season two, back when she was supposed to be entertainment on a lesbian cruise, and she just offended everyone there.

**Jean Smart** (4:34)
Got put off the ship.

**Aarti Shahani** (4:37)
Then by season five, your character is kissing Ava on the lips.

**Jean Smart** (4:42)
Yeah. Anything for a jumpsuit, I guess.