Jamie Bryson vs Joe Brolly: A Free State Special

Joe Brolly (0:12)

So, King William of Orange, Edward Carson, Dr. Paisley with his thunderous never, never, never, and now sitting in front of us, the last remaining defender of Ulster, Jamie Bryson in a tracksuit.

Jamie, you're very welcome to Free State. How are you?

Jamie Bryson (0:30)

Thanks, Joe. Yeah, I set the suit aside. I'm too busy winning in the high court the last couple of weeks, so decided to take a day off.

I tracksuit day in the house, plotting our next victory.

Joe Brolly (0:43)

Just so that we can get a number on this, how many victories have you had in the judicial review court over the last fortnight?

Jamie Bryson (0:51)

Five.

Joe Brolly (0:53)

Now, you are familiar with King Pyrrhus, the famous Greek king?

Jamie Bryson (1:01)

No.

Joe Brolly (1:02)

Well, he had two masterful tactical triumphs over the Roman army. But after the second one, he said, if we have another battle like this, it will ruin us entirely. And sure enough, sure enough, the next battle, they were destroyed. And that gives rise, that gives rise to the famous phrase, a Pyrrhic victory.

Do you not feel you're winning battles but losing the war?

Jamie Bryson (1:30)

No, no, no, no, no. I think the battles have set up the substantial victory in the war.

It's been a tough couple of weeks for our good old mutual friend, Mr. Macon, whose analysis of Article 11 of the Convention has been rejected by the Court of Appeal.

Joe Brolly (1:48)

But I mean, it's the... I mean, talk me through the mindset of an adult male who wants to march through a community where he's not welcome.

Jamie Bryson (2:05)

I mean, what's the mindset of that person?

Joe Brolly (2:09)

I mean, you're familiar with the marchers, so...

Jamie Bryson (2:11)

Well, it's interesting how you're framing that, Joe, because the first thing is this, what's the mindset of a person who approaches access to public spaces on the basis of no-go areas as to who wants people to go where? You know as well as I know that that is, in human rights terms, completely unsustainable.

Joe Brolly (2:28)

But I'm asking you a specific question.

What's in the mind of the Orange men who want to march through this community? I mean, you know them and you're very familiar with them.

Jamie Bryson (2:38)

No, Joe, it's not marching through somebody's community and that's the way it's framed. It's a main arterial street. Apparently, we all have shared space. And this is a traditional plain road since 1807

So there's a tradition. I mean, look, I would be on the same page as you, if 35 Orange men woke up one day and decided, look, we've never done this before, but just for the sheer hell of it, we're going to decide to march the Ardoyne or the Falls Road or whatever, just for the fun of it. That's an entirely different proposition.

Joe Brolly (3:06)

Why would that make any difference, Jamie?

Jamie Bryson (3:08)

Something that has been a tradition since 1807, Joe, 1807, 200 years. And they went about it the right way. And let me flip the question to you. What is in the mindset of an adult male, particularly those who tell us about a New Ireland and inclusion in human rights, who objects to 35 mostly elderly men walking in silence at eight o'clock in the morning.

Joe Brolly (3:33)

If you don't mind me saying so, Jamie, your entire approach to interviews, your entire philosophy is precisely the same as loyalism and unionism, which is this, it reminds me of Mickey McConnell's great song about the futility of the troubles. What flag did he die for? Was it green, white and gold or was it the red, white and blue? King James or King Billy, the sash or the lily? That's the riddle I'm leaving to you.

So when I asked you, what's in the mind of these people who want to march through this community, it's a genuine question. What's their motivation?

Jamie Bryson (4:08)

I've answered the question. It's a traditional, this has been a tradition passed down to the fathers and grandfathers which they have done since 1807 It means something to them to complete that tradition and they feel that they've been unjustly denied. And by the way, Joe, by the way, you purport to be a great advocate for human rights as does the nationalist community. They have won this human right.

They've won five cases. It's been abetted by the Court of Appeals.

Dion Fanning (4:36)

Let me ask you this, let me ask you a different way.

Joe Brolly (4:38)

What good can come of it?