How to Trust God When You Don't Understand: John Ortberg, Ann Voskamp, and Toni Nieuwhof on Wanting to Give Up and What They Would Believe If They Weren't Christians

Carey Nieuwhof (0:01)

The Art of Leadership Network.

John Ortberg (0:02)

I wasn't actively suicidal, but I felt like if I were to die tomorrow, I'd be real fine with that. Like, I'm ready to check out. And Nancy and I had shared this with just a couple of people because it was very personal.

And then one of the people that I called to talk through this situation was Dallas Willard, who a lot of our listeners will know as a writer and just a remarkable person. And so I kind of put it out. And then there was a long pause with Dallas. There would always be a long pause. And then he said, This will be a test of your joyful confidence in God. Now, nobody else said anything like that. Everybody else is like, this must be really hard. We'll pray for you. It's going to be tough going through. With Dallas, there's nothing like that. It's just a pause. This will be a test of your joyful confidence in God.

And in a way, it felt a little abrupt at first, like, well, let's test your joyful confidence in God.

Carey Nieuwhof (1:05)

Welcome to The Carey Nieuhof Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us. This one's personal. I sit down with my wife, Ann Voskamp and John Ortberg for a kind of conversation that you would have if you were at dinner with us. We talk about how to trust God when you don't understand, about spiritual formation in an instant culture, what to do when God is silent, what to say and not say when someone is suffering. And I don't think I've ever asked anyone on the podcast this question before. What would you believe if you weren't a Christian? That's really interesting. That's a fascinating conversation. And one of the things I try to do is I try to bring you into the room so we can have a conversation with the leaders in the same way you would if you got to grab dinner with them. And this is all in service of a big project that Toni's been working on now for a couple of years.

If you had told me, and I say this at the end of the interview, if she had told me two years ago, you know what? I'm gonna get a book together with some of the top authors in the world. We're gonna all work for free and donate our profits to charity. And here's who I'm gonna get. I'm gonna get John Ortberg, Ann Voskamp, Nicky and Pippa Gumbel, Mark Batterson. I'll get Jenny Lusko, Amy Groeschel to contribute. I think I'll get Mark Clark. I think I'll get, you know, Rebecca Lyons.

How are you gonna do that?

John Ortberg (2:26)

But she did it.

Carey Nieuwhof (2:27)

And there's more. It's incredible.

And 100% of the profit from this book, Honest to God, which you can purchase now, single copy or in bulk exclusively at honestogodbook.com goes to Compassion and Convoy of Hope, two charities that we really believe in. We want to make the world a better place and we want to help people connect with God. So that's what this book does to discuss struggling with suffering in this life. We've got Toni, Ann and John. Toni is a pharmacist, a lawyer, a mediator, a podcaster, an author, a speaker and a whole lot more. Also my wife of 36 years and she is the contributing editor of Honest to God. She writes some of the content, but also is the editor that brought this all together. When did I mention Tara Lee Cobble does the Biblical commentary on this? It's fascinating in Honest to God book. Anyway, Ann Voskamp is a New York Times bestselling author.

She has written numerous books that help readers find grace and live gratefully in the middle of ordinary life and tough seasons alike. And John Ortberg served as the teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church until 2003 when he became the senior pastor at Menlo Park Presbyterian Church in Northern California. He now leads the ministry Become New, focused on helping people grow spiritually. And he has an incredible new podcast I never miss an episode of called Formation with John Ortberg. So gonna want to check them out. And now our wide ranging conversation with Toni, John and Ann. So it's really fun to assemble this little cast of friends and spouses on this one. So Toni and John, really great to have you here today. Thank you so much for joining us.

John Ortberg (4:16)

Well, it's delightful to be here. Thank you. And Ann, good to see you too.

Ann Voskamp (4:21)

So good to be with you all. Carey and Toni, you are close friends. We've broke bread here at the farm table many times. And Darryl and I have had the joy of fellowshipping at your home. So, so thankful. John, what a grace and a gift to just sit around a podcast microphone and lean into what the Lord has for us.