How to Stay Curious, Playful & Intimate, Decades After You Meet with Esther Perel #687

Esther Perel (0:01)

It's important to not fall in the trap where for centuries, you had to be ashamed if you had sex, and now you have to be ashamed if you don't have sex. It's the same tyranny reversed. In order to want sex, it needs to be sex that is worth wanting, and then we can start the conversation.

Rangan Chatterjee (0:16)

Hey guys, how are you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr Rangan Chatterjee, and this is my podcast, Feel Better, Live More.

Today's episode is a bit different to usual, in the sense that it was recorded live at the iconic festival, Southwest by Southwest in London in June earlier this year. Today's guest, Esther Perel, asked me to interview her on stage to mark the 20th anniversary of her groundbreaking book, Mating in Captivity, Unlocking Erotic Intelligence. Now, two decades ago, Esther's book asked whether desire could survive marriage and children. But on its anniversary, I asked her about a bigger threat that couples face today, convenience. Regular listeners will know that Esther, who's appeared on my podcast before, is a psychotherapist renowned for exploring the intricacies of human connection, intimacy, and desire. Through her books, events, and online offerings, she's helped millions of people form better relationships, romantically, platonically, and in the workplace. Although this is a shorter episode than usual, it's filled with wisdom, insight, and game-changing takeaways. We cover so many different topics, including the importance of showing your appreciation, why staying curious and playful is key to a happy marriage, and why your partner is not your village, and why seeking a soulmate might be missing the point. It's when Esther describes a recent couples therapy session she gave to a person and their AI companion, though, that I think your jaw will really drop. It'll make you think twice about seeking perfection in a partner, and long for some good old fashioned unpredictability instead. This is a vibrant and thought-provoking episode that offers a way of thinking about desire, connection, and expectations that applies to all the relationships in our lives and not just the romantic ones.

What I thought we do to start off, Esther, is to do some quick fire questions. Okay.

What is one habit that improves our relationships the most?

Esther Perel (3:05)

Ongoing appreciations. We become so good at being critical of the person we live with that it's actually very interesting when instead you put your lens on anything, you could just say, thank you, nice, I appreciate, it moves me.

That will create a bucket that is very significant.

Rangan Chatterjee (3:25)

Yeah, I love that. What is something people misunderstand about finding the right partner?

Esther Perel (3:34)

Well, it's the focus on finding the right partner that is in itself a problem. Why don't we ever ask, am I the right partner?

Who am I in this relationship rather than what I find? And finding the right partner has a lot to do with a checklist. And my first and foremost advice these days is ditch the checklist. I mean, that in itself is a curse.

Rangan Chatterjee (3:55)

Yeah.

Esther Perel (3:55)

How many of you have checklists?

Rangan Chatterjee (4:03)

Is there a daily ritual you never skip?

Esther Perel (4:06)

A daily ritual I never skip. I probably call a friend every day just to chat, just to ask how are they doing. Because these days, I find that you can easily go for weeks without talking to someone to then find out that they're in deep shit and you had no idea. Seriously, you laugh, but in fact, it's not always so funny.

I think just to call, for the sake of calling, just to say hello and not to text only is really changes something, or even a voice message, but the voice is super important. It is the first thing we hear in utero. Let's never forget that.

Rangan Chatterjee (4:46)

Yeah, love that. What was the best piece of relationship advice you have ever received?

Esther Perel (4:54)

If you told me the worst, I would have lots. But the best piece of relationship advice, never take it for granted. Never take it for granted. It led to a sentence that I then wrote actually in Mating when I said, your partner never belongs to you. They are just on loan with an option to renew.

And I thought that is true for me too.

Rangan Chatterjee (5:24)

Yeah.

Esther Perel (5:24)

You know, at any point, somebody can disappear. Death, illness, walking away, falling in love somewhere else. So don't just, you know, become lazy and complacent. It's amazing how much we make sure to give our car a tune up on a regular basis and how lazy we can become in our relationship at home.