How to Build a Life You Don't Want to Retire From | Stephen Herman & Evelyn Neaman

**Stephen Herman** (0:00)
I met with two first-year lawyers yesterday at the firm that I'm working at, and talked about my retirement project, and I said, I don't want you to feel anxious, but you should know, the minute you start your career, you're on your way to retirement. And that's not something you have to be afraid of, but it can offer you a perspective of what's coming in the future. And so I'm convinced that there is value in planning for your retirement.

**SPEAKER_2** (0:29)
Welcome to The Midlife Chrysalis Podcast with Chip Conley, where we explore how midlife isn't a crisis, but a chrysalis, a time of profound transformation that can lead to the most meaningful chapter of your life.

**Chip Conley** (0:44)
Welcome to The Midlife Chrysalis. This is Chip Conley. And today's episode, some of you might say like, oh, like it's about retirement and I don't want to talk about that. Or these two folks, this couple are, they focused on retirement for judges and lawyers. That's not me. Let me tell you, this, this episode has a lot of relevance, no matter whether you're retiring or whether you are a judge or a lawyer. And the reason is, it actually is a story of reinvention. Here's a couple who were doing their own things separately, that actually in their 50s, decided they were going to do a project together. And the project was helping to get lawyers and judges to understand how to create a plan for retirement. That led to them creating a documentary film that was in our MEA Film Fest, which is every December in Santa Fe. And so they actually learned how to work together and it sort of reinvented their careers and their lives. But it's also, and so for those of you who are interested in filmmaking that it has some relevance there too. But here's the other thing. If you're in midlife and let's say you're early midlife, like 45ish.
At some point you are going to start thinking about this retirement. And whether it's the point of view of like, I'm never going to retire. That's thinking about it. Or it's like, I'm going to do like, what is it? The fire. There's something called fire.
Freedom, retire early. Freedom something, retire early.
It's a lot of millennials generally who are saying like, I'm going to retire at 45
I'm going to make a lot of money quickly so that I can spend a long time having freedom. So there's an element that this episode is relevant to anybody who's starting to wonder what their relationship is going to be like with their career in the latter part of their life, the second half of their adult life. So I hope you enjoy it. Evelyn and Steve are teaching at our Santa Fe campus, September 24th through the 27th. So check it out and I'll talk with you at the end and give you my three key lessons. Stephen, Evelyn, welcome to The Midlife Chrysalis from Vancouver.

**Evelyn Neaman** (2:47)
That's correct.

**Stephen Herman** (2:48)
Thank you, Chip.

**Chip Conley** (2:50)
We had you come down for our MEA Film Fest in December, and you had a documentary film called Retirement on Trial, that was oriented toward lawyers who are retiring, but you also have a documentary around the broader definition of retirement. You're actually going to be teaching here at the MEA campus later this year in Santa Fe. So Steve, your relationship with retirement in some ways was initiated based upon what you saw from your mom.
Tell us a little bit about her because this episode is really relevant, not just to lawyers who are retiring, but anyone who's retiring. And what's the psychology of what we need to do to consider the steps toward retirement or not consider the steps towards retirement? I'd love to just hear the story of your mom.

**Stephen Herman** (3:37)
Sure, you bet.
So I don't think that I was unique in being tortured by the prospect of an approaching retirement. I think I might have been unique in that I heard that call, I heard that small voice in my head at around 50 years of age, which you're going to say, well, that actually wasn't surprising. I think a lot of people managed to ignore that noise and ignore that voice for a period of time. I couldn't. I simply couldn't. And I think the reason I couldn't is because I had seen in my own life how a failure to plan and prepare for the end of a career can be disastrous.
My mother was a school teacher working with learning disabled and gifted children. And she was a wonderful mother. But I would say in many ways, I think she found more purpose in life being a teacher than in just being a mother or a stay at home mother. And at just short of 60 years of age, she had an actuary come to her and say, you know, Sheila, you've been a teacher for so long. It's not financially prudent for you to continue. You can retire and effectively earn the same income. And she retired. She followed that advice without any thought given to what comes next. And unfortunately, what came next, Chip, was 20 years of unrelenting depression and anxiety. And that I simply could not ignore. And so at around 50 years of age, I literally became obsessed with trying to plan and prepare for my own retirement.