How to Be a Double Unicorn, with John Urschel | Better in Person

Stephen Dubner (0:00)

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Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner, and this is a bonus episode that we are calling How to Be a Double Unicorn. Comes from our new video talk show, which is called Better in Person, and the guest is John Urschel, a former NFL lineman who now teaches math at MIT. John is one of my very favorite people, and I think you will like him too. To watch this episode, go to the Freakonomics YouTube channel, or search for Better in Person on Apple podcasts. The entire first season of the show has now been published, so go ahead, binge. As always, thanks for listening.

So you didn't ever open a math book on the Ravens facility?

John Urschel (0:55)

No, never.

Stephen Dubner (0:57)

Because you're busy doing football?

John Urschel (0:58)

Well, I'm busy doing football. This is Better in Person with Stephen Dubner and John Urschel.

Stephen Dubner (1:07)

A lot of us spend our lives trying to find the one big thing we're really good at. John Urschel had a slightly different problem. He turned out to be world class at two things, two very different things, football and math.

One path led to the NFL, the other to MIT. Eventually, he had to make a choice.

John Urschel (1:28)

I am the son of a pretty good college football player.

Stephen Dubner (1:32)

This is your dad.

John Urschel (1:34)

Yes, my dad.

Stephen Dubner (1:35)

Who also became a thoracic surgeon.

John Urschel (1:37)

Yes, and not only did he become a thoracic surgeon, he, while in college, playing college football, was in medical school. Some of these universities have these programs where they really accelerate people to med school. You do two years and then straight into med school.

He did exactly this.

Stephen Dubner (1:54)

Where did he play football in?

John Urschel (1:55)

University of Alberta. So, he's Canadian, I'm Canadian.

So, my mom and dad have me. I was born in Canada. They moved to Buffalo for my dad's work, and then eventually my dad moves back to Canada.

Stephen Dubner (2:08)

Got it. And you stay in Buffalo with your mom. I stay in Buffalo.

John Urschel (2:10)

But I would visit my dad all the time, and he's working as a thoracic surgeon, he's a really busy person. He would pick me up, he would take me to the hospital, he would do his rounds, he would let me look around on his computer, and then after he would do his rounds, he would take me to the local chapters.

Stephen Dubner (2:26)

Yeah.

John Urschel (2:27)

And he would be in the cafe, he would just be working.

Stephen Dubner (2:30)

How old at this point?

John Urschel (2:32)

Eight or nine.

Stephen Dubner (2:33)

What are you reading? What are you doing?

John Urschel (2:34)

I'm looking at all different types of books, I'm just sitting and reading books, exploring, and I find myself just mostly hanging out in the math section. And I'm just opening up things and picking up things that I have no business picking up.

Stephen Dubner (2:46)

Did that strike you as unusual? No, it was fun.

John Urschel (2:51)

I'm here four or five hours every second Saturday. I am in elementary school, but this is fun.

Stephen Dubner (2:59)

And I know you liked puzzles from the time you were very young.

John Urschel (3:01)

So this is the other section I would spend a lot of time, and there's the puzzle section.

Stephen Dubner (3:04)

You know, we asked you to bring something for show and tell. You brought this book.

John Urschel (3:09)

The big book of Tell Me Why. So this is something my mom bought for me.

Stephen Dubner (3:15)

I noticed there's like a big boot print here and coffee stains there. You think that's your mom or your dad or you think that's you?

John Urschel (3:21)

No. So this is because this would go in the trunk. And so-

Stephen Dubner (3:25)

Just so that you'd always have it with you when you're-

John Urschel (3:28)

Well, around, let's say, third grade.

Stephen Dubner (3:30)

Okay.

John Urschel (3:31)

So my mom is working as an attorney. And she has a lot of night court. She went to law school very late in life.

Stephen Dubner (3:36)

Yeah.

John Urschel (3:37)

And my grandmother had died the year before, so we're without childcare. So now she's taking me places.

So she has night court, and she doesn't think I'm quite old enough to stay at home. Well, she did leave me at home a bit, but I don't think it went too well.