HIGHLIGHTS: Jens Stoltenberg

**Jens Stoltenberg** (0:01)
Hi, everybody.

**Nicolai Tangen** (0:01)
Tune in to this short version of the podcast, which we do every Friday for the long version. Tune in on Wednesdays.
Hi, everyone. I'm Nicolai Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund. And today I'm really excited because I'm here with a guest who has defined the last 30 years of Norway's place in the world. So warm welcome to Jens Stoltenberg.

**Jens Stoltenberg** (0:21)
Thank you so much for having me.

**Nicolai Tangen** (0:22)
Now, you created the fiscal rule that turned Norway's oil money into the world's largest sovereign wealth fund. You've been prime minister twice. You led NATO for 10 years.
And now you are back as finance minister running the fund. You helped create. So very, very interesting.

**Jens Stoltenberg** (0:39)
It is a fascinating history. And of course, there have been many decisions making this fund possible. But actually, when I became finance minister 30 years ago in 1996, that was the year we made the first installment into the fund. And since then, I've followed the fund very closely.

**Nicolai Tangen** (0:58)
There's been some pretty big calls done here. So one, to save the revenues, invest in equities, and then, of course, you also have the spending rule. So what do you think are the most important ones? And were they obvious at the time?

**Jens Stoltenberg** (1:10)
No, all of them were politically controversial. And I think what we have learned in Norway is that when you want to make or to create a certain wealth fund, you have to make three important political decisions.
One is how much to save. The second is how much to use, so how much to put in and then how much to take out of the fund. And then the third decision is where to invest. And to the first question, how much to save? By law, we decided that all the oil and gas revenues are saved. Every cent, every dollar earned is saved into the fund. That's the first decision, how much to put in. The second important political decision is about how much to take out. And then we created the golden fiscal rule back in 2001
And that says that the only thing we can withdraw from the fund is the expected financial real return. Meaning that we have estimated that to be 3%.

**Nicolai Tangen** (2:15)
Do you think you would have done that differently if you knew how big the fund would become?

**Jens Stoltenberg** (2:19)
No, I don't think so.

**Nicolai Tangen** (2:21)
Do you think that we, for instance, would have been a clause that the fund cannot account for more than, I don't know. Now it's 25% of the state budget. Do you think, for instance, you would have put in one max of 10%?

**Jens Stoltenberg** (2:31)
No, I don't think so. But of course, I was prime minister when we decided that rule. So maybe I'm very biased. It has served Norway well for now 26 years.
The fiscal rule to only spend the expected real return.
And I will always be open to other models to listen to alternative ways of doing this. But fundamentally, I think we need to understand that the oil and gas wealth is not for Norwegian state. It's for the Norwegian people. And by spending the financial return, we ensure that the Norwegian people today and in the future will benefit from the oil and gas wealth. But the third political decision is then where to invest. We decided back in 1997, actually in this room, this very room in the Ministry of Finance, to then start to invest in equity.

**Nicolai Tangen** (3:27)
Do you think it's making the country complacent?

**Jens Stoltenberg** (3:31)
At least there is a risk. And therefore, we need to be aware of that risk because we have seen other countries become too complacent if they have too much oil and gas revenues. Again, it helps that we save everything. So the only thing we spend is 3%. Because if we spent it as we earned it, we would have spent much more. And then we would have been without any oil and gas revenues when the production now has started to go down.
But again, it's not a problem to be rich. But there is a challenge to not become complacent. And the main message from me as Minister of Finance is that the main source for our wealth is not oil. The main source for our wealth is labour, work.
And therefore, we need to do whatever we can to mobilise more Norwegian to work more.

**Nicolai Tangen** (4:32)
Last year, you suspended the Ethics Council. Why?

**Jens Stoltenberg** (4:37)