Happiness Rules: Should Wellbeing Dictate Government Policy? (Lord Richard Layard)

**Amol Rajan** (0:00)
Hey, guys, it's Amol here. Before we get into this week's episode, I just wanted to remind you about a stellar guest that we've got coming up on Radical. Her name is Sophie Pender, and she has made a name for herself creating something called the 93% Club. The name refers to the proportion of people in the UK who are not privately educated. In other words, they're state educated. And the club is designed to tackle something that Sophie believes has been an enemy of social mobility for a long time, networking and class. It may have evolved slightly over the years, but Sophie firmly believes that old boys networks or similar variations among the privately educated are getting in the way of social mobility. So she decided to do something rather radical and say, if you can't beat them, join them. And she founded the 93% Club 10 years ago while she was at university. She calls it the UK's least exclusive members club. It's built on the principle that state educated people should have same access to the networks of support that have historically benefited their privately educated peers. And I should say that we want your questions for her. So questions for Sophie Pender, please on class, on social mobility, on private versus state education, on private schools, which she has strong views on, on networking, on the lot. Send them in by emailing radical at bbc.co.uk or sending us a voice note on WhatsApp 3301239480
We'd love to hear from you. Now, on to this week's episode.
Hello, it's Amol here. Welcome to Radical. These are conversations about the deep global trends changing our world and offering you some radical ideas for the future with some pretty radical thinkers. And we've got one this week. He is Richard Layard, Professor Layard, Lord Layard, a labor peer, an economist. And by the way, I'm really excited about this. He is our first 92 year old guest on this podcast. He's someone who spent decades, and particularly the last couple of decades, arguing that we need to fundamentally shift the focus of public conversation, and yes, public policy, those things that the government, the state is responsible for, from economic issues like wealth, like welfare, like GDP, to something else, which is well-being and human happiness. In fact, in 2004, he wrote a book called Happiness Lessons from a New Science, which was translated into lots and lots of languages. And it argued that you can now measure human happiness and the impact of Richard's work has been deeply felt all around the world, but particularly here in the UK. If you're someone who has benefited from the NHS Talking Therapies Program, that was his idea. If you're someone who cares for the government measuring well-being, that was one of his ideas. If you're someone who thinks that schools should do much, much, much more on looking after the welfare of their pupils, well, he's been a big advocate there as well. This is riveting, it's radical, it's a kind of fun and uplifting conversation for someone who basically thinks we're getting an awful lot wrong. And I think you're gonna end up not only with a bunch of radical ideas, but frankly, feeling rather happy about it too. Here is Richard Layard.
Richard Layard, Lord Layard, welcome to Radical.

**Richard Layard** (3:18)
Very wonderful to be here on your wonderful series.

**Amol Rajan** (3:20)
I have to say, I'm not easily starstruck, but we have never met, well, we haven't met until about five minutes ago.
And I have been looking forward to this, not just because if I may say, some people will be charmed by the idea that a man in his 90s, if I may say, is radical, and you are pretty radical, but also because your book and your work and your thought has been a significant influence on my life. You wrote this book called Happiness, which I'm holding now. Happiness, Lessons from a New Science in 2005, when I was an undergraduate reading an awful lot about utilitarianism, and I thought you were going to unleash a moral revolution in Britain. How's it gone?

**Richard Layard** (4:04)
Well, we've made a lot of progress. I think we've made more progress perhaps on the policy front, but also we've made big progress in the population. So in the population, we've got this movement called Action for Happiness, half a million members and more, who pledge to in their lives, create as much happiness as they can and as little unhappiness.
This is, I think, a powerful movement to enable people to live lives which are better from society's point of view but also more satisfying from their own point of view. I mean, on the policy front, we got David Cameron to measure the well-being of the population. That's gone on ever since.