GENOCIDE!

SPEAKER_1 (0:01)

Are you interested in the parts of history that remain a mystery? Do you want to learn more about the historical myths and misconceptions used to prop up belief today?

I'm Nathaniel Lloyd. In my podcast, Historical Blindness, I delve into all of these topics, sharing puzzling tales from the past, and examining hoaxes, conspiracy theories, and misremembered events that provide insight into modern politics and religion. New episodes every two weeks find historical blindness on most podcast players and platforms.

Dan McClellan (0:37)

Matthew will tell the story so as to make it fulfill prophecy, even if it is ludicrous. And so Matthew is describing Jesus riding two animals at the same time into Jerusalem. You can find paintings of Jesus side-saddle on a big donkey with his feet resting on a small donkey.

Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

Dan Beecher (1:07)

And I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan (1:08)

And you are listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things, Dan?

Dan Beecher (1:21)

Things are great.

You know, by the time our friends hear this, this will have already happened, but I'm fixing to go to a religious celebration soon. Tomorrow morning, I take off for Mardi Gras in New Orleans, which is vaguely related to Lent and Shrove Tuesday and all of that stuff. I will not be celebrating any of those things, but I will be celebrating some amazing Cajun food and some parades and such. So I'm stoked. I'm excited.

Dan McClellan (1:56)

Come back with no beads.

You want to have given them all the way, right? That's the point I understand.

Dan Beecher (2:04)

You know, I am bead neutral, I will say. I have no plans for beads one way or the other.

Dan McClellan (2:15)

New Orleans is a wonderful city. The first time I was there was way back in 2009 Flew off to Oxford with my family, and a month later came back for a conference taking place in New Orleans. And we had just a wonderful time.

We went to find a restaurant downtown New Orleans on Thanksgiving. We found a little hole in the wall. Best mac and cheese I've ever had.

Dan Beecher (2:38)

Love it.

Dan McClellan (2:38)

In my entire life.

Dan Beecher (2:39)

Love it. Just don't go in August.

It's very hot and muggy.

Dan McClellan (2:43)

Oh, I can imagine. I don't like when the mosquitoes could carry you away.

Dan Beecher (2:52)

That's less appealing.

Dan McClellan (2:54)

Yeah, I scratched those places off my list when I'm looking for a place to go.

Dan Beecher (2:58)

Speaking of less appealing.

Dan McClellan (3:00)

Yes.

Dan Beecher (3:02)

Today's show's an interesting one. We're diving headfirst into one of the roughest things to square in the Bible.

Dan McClellan (3:14)

And that's saying something. We've engaged a lot of rough topics on the show so far.

Dan Beecher (3:22)

Yeah, but this one's real, real tricky. We're going to talk genocide, friends.

And that's going to be fun. And if we have time for it at the end, we'll do a little sorbet course.

Dan McClellan (3:34)

A little palate cleanser.

Dan Beecher (3:35)

A little palate cleanser, and we'll give you Jesus' petting zoo.

Dan McClellan (3:43)

A fun story, a confusing sometimes story about Jesus riding animals.

Dan Beecher (3:49)

Yes, indeed. So stick around for that. But first, let's dive in with genocide.

That's always fun. It's always a delight when we do that.

Dan McClellan (4:01)

Yeah, it comes up a lot, though.

Dan Beecher (4:03)

Yeah, and so first, I guess we should start with just like, what are some of the really rough passages that we're talking about when it comes to this? Because there are a couple.

Dan McClellan (4:18)

Well, I think the main one we're looking at is, and we find it scattered in a few different places, but we're talking about the conquest of Canaan at the hands of the Israelites. Following the 40 years in the desert, Moses is gone, Joshua is now leading the Israelites, and they are commanded to go in and take over the land and not just drive out the current inhabitants, but commit genocide and kill everything that breathes.

Dan Beecher (4:49)

Man, woman, child, animals. Yeah, and we're not just talking about the animals. That was the part that was like, man, we're getting rough.

Dan McClellan (4:58)

And there's a logic to this. First thing I want to point out is that most of the stuff that kind of champions this genocidal appropriation of this land is coming from the Deuteronomistic literature. So this is something that's being written toward the end of the 7th century BCE and is having layers added to it over the next couple of centuries.