Expert Testimonies | BONUS

Stephani Young (0:04)

Hey, it's Stephani. In this bonus episode, I wanted to share some parts of the June 10th trial we didn't get to in episode 7 Ultimately, you know how this trial ends. Judge Mata ruled in Clayton's favor and referred the matter to the Maricopa County Attorney's Office for review of Laura Owens' actions. This family court trial was jam-packed because there was a two-hour time limit. So in this bonus episode, I wanted to go back to the experts' testimonies. Laura Owens' team brought in Dr. Michael Medchill, a retired OB-GYN, who said he had delivered over 20,000 babies. Before the trial, Dr. Medchill reviewed medical records provided by David Gingras and reached a notable conclusion.

David Gingras (0:50)

Dr. Medchill, based on your review of Laura's medical records that you've identified in your report, did you form any opinions at all regarding whether or not she was pregnant in 2023 at any time?

Dr. Michael Medchill (1:00)

Absolutely. I believe she was pregnant with over 99% probability.

Stephani Young (1:05)

But the validity of the medical records Dr. Medchill reviewed were a point of contention.

SPEAKER_4 (1:10)

You understand Laura has admitted to faking medical records in this case.

Dr. Marissa Weiss (1:14)

Yes.

Stephani Young (1:16)

This became a central point of dispute during cross-examination, especially because Laura had already admitted under oath both at her deposition and again on June 10th to doctoring medical records. But there was something even more stunning about Dr. Medchill's testimony, a moment that became infamous in coverage of the case. Here's David Gingras during the trial.

David Gingras (1:38)

Mr. Echard has said that he doesn't believe that a pregnancy was possible here because there was no intercourse. Do you have an opinion about that? Regarding general, not regarding him or her, but in general.

Dr. Michael Medchill (1:49)

Well, it's said that men are like basketball players. They dribble before they shoot. They also dribble afterwards. And if you are rubbing genitalia together, it is possible to get pregnant.

Stephani Young (2:02)

After this moment that later became etched into the lore of this trial, Gingras asked Dr. Medchil to address the elephant in the room head on, and he doubled down.

David Gingras (2:13)

How much weight would you assign to the fact that Mr. Echard denied sexual intercourse? Is that significant to the question of whether she was pregnant or is it a minor point?

Dr. Michael Medchill (2:22)

It has nothing to do with whether she was pregnant.

Stephani Young (2:27)

This testimony gave me pause. I always understood penetrative sex to be a near universal precursor to conception. So I called my own expert.

Dr. Marissa Weiss (2:37)

My name is Dr. Marissa Weiss. I'm a board certified OBGYN. I currently am practicing in the space of infertility, which I did a subspecialty fellowship in.

Stephani Young (2:47)

Dr. Weiss specializes in infertility, which means she works with the science of conception every day.

Dr. Marissa Weiss (2:53)

Probably the most common comment I get from my patients, again, who are patients who are actively trying to conceive, is how surprised people are at the likelihood of conception on any given month. When we are given kind of sex ed in middle school, we're led to believe that if you have unproven intercourse, there's basically a 100 percent chance you're getting pregnant. But in reality, even with intentional, well-timed intercourse, around the time of ovulation, your odds of pregnancy on any given month are 20 percent. Contrary to kind of what we're told in middle school and high school, on any given month, it's more likely that you won't get pregnant.

Stephani Young (3:31)

Importantly, what Dr. Weiss is talking about here is vaginal intercourse, not oral sex. And there is a huge caveat that penetrative sex also has to occur at the time of ovulation, which means there's a small window on any given month that a person can conceive. Another part of trial that was stuck in my head was the detail about Laura running to the bathroom after the blowjob.

SPEAKER_4 (3:56)

Where did you complete?

Stephani Young (3:58)

Her mouth both times.

SPEAKER_4 (3:59)

What happened the second time?

David Gingras (4:00)

She ran straight to the bathroom.

Stephani Young (4:03)

Woodnick told me he always found it to be a suspicious detail in the chain of events. Woodnick said he never ruled out a kind of spit maneuver. But I wondered if it was even possible for someone to impregnate themselves this way. So, I asked Dr. Weiss if sperm could even survive that long.

Dr. Marissa Weiss (4:20)

Sperm motility decreases within minutes in the saliva. And most sperm are kind of immobilized or dead within 15 to 30 minutes. So in some sense, it kind of depends on how long is, you know, elapsing between the ejaculation and then the collection. In theory, if you did it within seconds or minutes even, I guess there's a slight chance. But again, then you also run into all the other things. It has to be around the time of ovulation and everything else. So it's kind of a Swiss cheese model. A lot of things have to line up in order for it to happen. But theoretically, if within a couple of minutes of ejaculation into someone's mouth, they were to collect the sperm and put it in the vagina either, you know, via some kind of vaginal insemination or elsewise, and they happen to be around the time of ovulation, there's still a small chance of pregnancy.