Esther Perel: The Truth About Why Passion Fades (and How to Bring It Back)

**Sarah Grynberg** (0:00)
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Esther Perel is one of the world's leading relationship experts and I'm so excited to welcome her back to the podcast. This is the second time she's joined me and she's become one of my favourite guests. Every time I speak with Esther, I walk away thinking differently about love, intimacy and the way we connect with each other.
Twenty years after the release of her groundbreaking book Mating in Captivity, we explore why the very things that make us feel safe and secure can slowly erode passion and desire. We talk about the difference between love and lust, how dating apps and social media are reshaping modern relationships, and what it really takes to keep intimacy, mystery and desire alive over the long term.

**Esther Perel** (1:25)
You go out with friends and you hear your partner talking to them, and they discuss all kinds of interesting things, and you look at them and you say, I never read this, I never know you saw this, I never know you knew this, and then you go in the car and instead of continuing this interesting conversation, you actually start talking about who's doing the shopping tomorrow, and then you complain of boredom.

**Sarah Grynberg** (1:54)
I'm Sarah Grynberg and this is A Life Of Greatness.
Through my years of studying and researching the connection between human behaviour, personal growth and transformation, I have discovered the keys to unlocking greatness within others. In this podcast, I share stories and experiences from my own teachings along with conversations with inspiring guests to help you learn the simple tips, habits, practices and strategies to cultivate an extraordinary existence. I'm also thrilled that Esther will be returning to Australia this December for her strangers, friends and lovers a night out with Esther Perel tour. My hope is that this conversation encourages you to look at your relationships with fresh eyes. Whether you're single, dating or have been with your partner for decades, I hope it leaves you feeling more curious, more connected and more hopeful about what's possible when we truly understand one another. Every conversation with Esther stays with me long after we finish talking and I have a feeling this one will stay with you too.
Esther, it is such a joy to have you back on the podcast. Obviously, we were together a couple of years ago and I have interviewed so many amazing, amazing people around the world, but your episode is still the highest downloaded episode out of the 700 and something episodes I have done over the seven and a half years I have had this podcast. So it is beyond a pleasure to have you back.

**Esther Perel** (3:33)
It's a treat to be back.

**Sarah Grynberg** (3:35)
I wanted to ask you 20 years it's been for your book that's been re-released, Mating in Captivity, and that was just the most phenomenal book. What I wanted to talk to you about is romance and the idea that you obviously felt that you wanted to re-release the book.
This notion that you talk about in the book, you say people want absolute certainty before they have romance. So I want to start by getting you to talk to us a bit about that.

**Esther Perel** (4:05)
So it's a very interesting shift that has taken place. I always looked at the tension between safety and adventure, between loyalty and freedom, between our desire for familiarity and our desire for the unknown, between predictability and surprise. So I have been looking at these tensions in relationships, but something changed that is actually less in the nature of the relationships themselves as in our society, vis-à-vis how we tackle the unknown, the serendipity, the spontaneity, the uncertainty, the experimentation, and that got exacerbated during the pandemic. And we started to have much more remote lives. We started to gradually enter a process of social atrophy. I remember coming in 22 to Australia, and you were just coming out of the lockdown, massive lockdown, especially in Melbourne. And people were like for the first time in a room with others again. And a shift began to take place primarily in, I mean, not only, but one of the main reasons had to do with a kind of life lived with predictive technologies who actually give you a lot of certainty. Make a left, make a right, God forbid you take a wrong turn and discover a coastline that you didn't know existed.