End Times Capitalism: How Much Wealth Is Too Much Wealth? (Naomi Klein)

Gabriel Gatehouse (0:00)

When I was a foreign correspondent, reporting from wars, revolutions, and dictatorships around the world, I used to divide the stories I looked out for into roughly three types. One was what you'd call frontline reportage, telling a rapidly unfolding story through the eyes of the people at the hard edge of conflict. The second was bringing to light hidden stories of injustice, repression, political violence, war crimes.

And then there was a third category, a question really. Who's doing well here? Who's making money gaining power from all the chaos? And what does the answer tell us about the way the world works?

Hello, this is Radical with Gabriel Gatehouse. The show where we talk to people about ideas that could radically change the world with an open mind and a critical lens.

My guest this week has been a trailblazer in that third category of stories. She's one of the most influential figures on the political left. And whether you agree with her or not, Naomi Klein's writing has helped redefine our relationship with capitalism in the post-Cold War era. From her early books like No Logo and The Shock Doctrine to her latest volume, End Times Fascism, which I have here. She's reached millions of people with her critique of our global economic and political system and her suggestions for how to change it. Naomi Klein, welcome to Radical.

Naomi Klein (1:41)

Thank you. Good to be with you.

Gabriel Gatehouse (1:43)

It's great to have you here. We've just relaunched the show and when we were thinking about who should be our first guests, I thought you would be absolutely perfect.

But then I wondered whether, doesn't Naomi Klein herself think she is radical? Are you a radical?

Naomi Klein (2:00)

I have been treated as a radical, but I don't actually think my ideas are all that radical. I thought you'd say that.

But I think the center has moved further to a more radical place, and certainly the right has become more and more radical. So I do think that the more the crises of capitalism deepen, the more the ecological crises deepen, the more inequality widens, the more radical the responses need to be to just get us to a stable place. I think that ever since I've been writing about climate change, which is a long time, I, in my first book on the subject, which came out in 2014, I quoted a climate scientist named Michael Mann, who talks about the procrastination penalty. Meaning, if you don't act on the warnings we're giving you, then what you need to do becomes more radical. So I guess more radical.

Gabriel Gatehouse (3:08)

In a sentence, what is your most radical thought of what we need to do? We'll get into the detail later, but just nail it down.

Naomi Klein (3:15)

I mean, I believe that capitalism is driving us off a cliff.

And in order to justify the continued existence of an economic model built on endless growth and always looking for the next bubble, we as a society have found ourselves rationalizing increasingly unacceptable realities, like the existence of trillionaires or like artificial intelligence models whose makers themselves tell us there's a good chance they might wipe out humanity, or a energy system that is rapidly overheating our shared planet. So I think that when I started writing like my first book, No Logo, was pretty tame. If you look back, I'm like, I think there should be trade unions and I think that there should be a public sphere and it was really critiquing neoliberal capitalism more than the system itself. But I supposed I've been radicalized by reality.

Gabriel Gatehouse (4:20)

Right. Yeah. Right. You want to bring down the system?

Naomi Klein (4:24)

Before it brings us down.

Gabriel Gatehouse (4:25)

Right.

Naomi Klein (4:25)

I think it's careening.

Gabriel Gatehouse (4:27)

That is radical.

Naomi Klein (4:28)

But so I do think we that that's something very straightforward like maximum wealth. I don't think that we can coexist with billionaires anymore.

Gabriel Gatehouse (4:38)

Let's we'll get to the solutions later. I want to just take you back to the beginning.

Naomi Klein (4:42)

Sure.

Gabriel Gatehouse (4:43)

You didn't start off as a radical. I've heard you describe yourself as a moral radical.

Naomi Klein (4:48)

Well, I was a teenager.

Gabriel Gatehouse (4:49)

Right. We've all been teenagers.

Naomi Klein (4:53)

But I think that as an adult, I have been writing critically about capitalism since my earliest writings. I'm not sure if it's worth discussing myself at 14 now that I'm in my 50s.

Gabriel Gatehouse (5:09)

I'd like to know where you come from as a person. You come from radical stock.