Diana of Damascus | We call her Emma Ep2

**Asma al-Assad** (0:04)
Tortoise Investigates. Tortoise Investigates.

**Chloe Hadjimatheou** (0:20)
Just a quick warning before we start, that we're going to report on some graphic things in this episode. We're including them because they're an important part of the story. But this episode isn't always an easy listen.
Can I ask, on the way over, as you're sort of sitting on this flight, what did you know of the president and his wife?

**Brooks Newmark** (0:46)
If I can use this graphic language, I was literally sitting on the plane thinking, what the fuck do I say to a president of a country?

**Chloe Hadjimatheou** (0:55)
In the early 2000s, Brooks Newmark was a conservative politician here in the UK. His main job, to represent the people of a large, mostly rural part of the English countryside.
So, I can only imagine that if you were to place a bet on the day of his election, he probably wouldn't have been odds on favourite to be invited to meet a dictator.

**Brooks Newmark** (1:18)
So I wrote an article and in it I wrote, diplomacy becomes a little lazy if all you do is talk to your friends.

**Chloe Hadjimatheou** (1:26)
When Brooks wasn't dealing with the needs of his constituents, he'd sometimes turn his hand to writing. And in one particular article, he made the case that countries like the UK need to rethink how they do diplomacy. Sometimes it's best to speak with hostile states, even if that means sitting down with your enemy.
It wasn't a particularly popular idea at the time.

**SPEAKER_4** (1:49)
We must confront regimes that continue to harbour terrorists and pursue weapons of mass murder. Syria.

**Chloe Hadjimatheou** (1:56)
In the years after Asma arrived in Damascus, President Bush put Syria on his list of rogue states.
But Brooks did find someone who appreciated his article. One day his phone rings and it's the Syrian ambassador in London.

**Brooks Newmark** (2:13)
He said, well, I just want you to know the president read your article and was very impressed with your willingness to engage and everything. And he would like to invite you to meet with him. When can you come?

**Chloe Hadjimatheou** (2:25)
Brooks is a bit freaked out. But at the same time, he feels like he has a unique opportunity here. If he gets this right, he can make good on his theory. So he says yes.
It sounds like quite a gamble though. Brooks didn't have any particular expertise in Syrian politics.

**Brooks Newmark** (2:45)
I literally, and I promise you, I pulled out a paper napkin and I drew a picture of the Middle East and trying to remember what countries surround Syria.

**Chloe Hadjimatheou** (2:57)
All of this is swirling in his mind on his way to meet the president.
When he gets to Damascus, he's surprised to find the meeting isn't at the palace, but it's at Bashar's apartment in town. He's ushered into a library room.

**Brooks Newmark** (3:19)
Bashar then walks in just by himself and greets me, shakes my hand and first thing I notice is he's got quite a sweaty hand.
And I'm thinking he's clearly a little bit nervous about meeting me or something. And so I didn't even have to go to my mental map at this stage because we sat down and I immediately get like a 40 minute monologue from Bashar as to why having a relationship with the UK is important, that he spent two years working in the UK, his wife is British.

**Chloe Hadjimatheou** (3:54)
It turns out all his anxieties were overblown. The two men, the dictator and the British MP, well, they end up talking for over three hours.

**Brooks Newmark** (4:04)
I felt it was more of a therapy session for him than anything else because it was like he felt he could get all this stuff off his chest that he couldn't really do in a slightly more diplomatic session. And so at the end of it, he says, you know, I really enjoy this with his lisp, you know, when can you come back?

**Chloe Hadjimatheou** (4:24)
And so begins an unlikely relationship. Brooks ends up going back to Damascus around twice a year for the next few years.
And it's on one of those visits that he meets the president's English wife, Asma.

**Brooks Newmark** (4:40)
And I got invited to her cottage. She had her own little private place, if you will, in which I had a very, very, I thought a very good conversation with her.

**Chloe Hadjimatheou** (4:50)
How did you find her? What did you think of her?

**Brooks Newmark** (4:53)
I've got to say, I, on a personal level, I liked her. I thought she was clever. I thought he was very lucky to have a wife that's smart and that savvy. You know, she wasn't, I would say, the typical Middle East wife.