Demis Hassabis, Google DeepMind and the Battle Over AI Safety

**Sebastian Mallaby** (0:00)
Kara, Kara, I was trying to do this sort of optimistic, you know, ending riff.

**Kara Swisher** (0:04)
I understand, Sebastian.

**Sebastian Mallaby** (0:06)
You just burst my balloon.

**Kara Swisher** (0:07)
You know, intelligence has its limitations, but stupidity and greed are infinite. So that's my feeling, I'm sorry.
It's on!
Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is journalist and author, Sebastian Mallaby. He's a longtime chronicler of power and innovation, especially in the world of finance and economics. For his latest book, The Infinity Machine, he turns his attention to tech. His central figure is Demis Hassabis, the CEO and co-founder of Google's AI R&D lab, DeepMind, and a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry.
Hassabis has dedicated his life to using AI to unlock the mysteries of physics and biology. A former child chess prodigy, he's rapidly competitive and insatiably curious. But Mallaby says Demis is also one of the very few big names in AI development who genuinely cares about public safety. His struggle to balance his ambition, his personal goals, and the realities of the corporate AI race is, according to Mallaby, one of the most defining stories of the era. I think it's really important to look at characters like Demis because he was a very early person in AI, at least the modern version of AI, because it's been around forever. He's also based in London and kept his company there and away from Silicon Valley. So he has different goals here. At the same time, he's incredibly ambitious and a bit crusty, according to lots of people, very typical of a science researcher type. But he has less and less power over what's happening because of the vast amounts of money pouring into the space. People tend to forego safety for profits, in fact, they make profits anytime soon. He is different from other AI developers, so there's a lot of people who are sort of in his area. But he's certainly one of the leading minds of this age and someone you should know well. All right, let's get to my interview with Sebastian Mallaby. We have two expert question today from an ASDAC CEO, Adina Friedman and Kent Walker, President of Global Affairs at Google and Alphabet. This interview was recorded live in front of a virtual audience. It's part of the Dean Summer Book Series at American University's Kogod School of Business. So stick around.
Support for this show comes from The Guardian and their new show, Stateside, where journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of The Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources The Guardian has across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness and more. And The Guardians, not owned by a billionaire, they fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcast or watch on YouTube. That's theguardian.com/stateside.

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**Skylar Diggins** (3:51)
What's up, y'all? I'm Skylar Diggins, seven-time WNBA All-Star, Olympic gold medalist, and mom.

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**Kara Swisher** (4:18)
Sebastian Mallaby, thanks for coming on On.

**Sebastian Mallaby** (4:20)
Great to be with you, Kara.

**Kara Swisher** (4:22)
So for people who don't know who Demis is, it isn't a household name, the way other major AI figures have become like OpenAI Sam Altman, Anthropics Dario Emodi, or of course, XAIs Elon Musk. Even though he's accomplished as much or more in AI, I'll just say I broke the story when they bought his company at Google a long time ago, and I met him just briefly during that. He was mad at me because I broke the story. But nonetheless, let's put him into context because I did understand the importance of him in AI, and he's not in the shadows, but he's certainly not as well-known, he doesn't put himself out there. How is he like them and what sets him apart?