DeepSeek Panic, US vs China, OpenAI $40B?, and Doge Delivers with Travis Kalanick and David Sacks

**Jason Calacanis** (0:00)
All right, everybody, welcome back to the All-In Podcast. We've got an incredible crew today. Don't forget to go to our YouTube, blah, blah, blah, subscribe. And make sure you check out Friedberg's surprise drop with his hero, Ray Dalio, live on all platforms today. How did that come about? Friedberg, a little surprise drop.

**David Friedberg** (0:20)
Just great. I was talking with Ray about his new book, which he just published on how countries go broke. Obviously, very important topic.

**Chamath Palihapitiya** (0:29)
Going broke now, Friedberg.

**David Friedberg** (0:32)
Well, I think he talks a lot about the historical context of what's gone on with the debt cycles in different countries. And basically, at the end of the book, he has a pretty, I think, important recommendation to try and get the US to roughly 3% of GDP as our net deficit, net of all expense, including interest expense. So that's the recommendation to the administration. And I think it's pretty timely with the change in administration. Anyway, great topics to talk through and really important book.

**Jason Calacanis** (1:03)
Awesome. Well done. And we are super delighted to have in the Red Throne, Travis Kalanick. He is the co-founder and CEO of Cloud Kitchens. He also worked in the cab business for a little bit, co-founder and former CEO of Uber. And, yeah, we had a great interview at the All-In Summit last year. And he's back up from his media hiatus. He's been in the lab working on Cloud Kitchens. How are you doing, brother?

**Travis Kalanick** (1:28)
I'm doing really well. I got to say, just like at the summit, Jason, it's an honor to be in the presence of such a prominent Uber investor.

**Jason Calacanis** (1:38)
Absolutely. I mean, finally, somebody has recognized my contribution.

**David Friedberg** (1:45)
The greatness of Jay Cal. Absolutely.

**Travis Kalanick** (1:48)
I'll mention it three or four times. I'll give you the props. You don't have to do it for yourself anymore.

**Jason Calacanis** (1:52)
Thank you.

**David Friedberg** (1:52)
I appreciate it.

**Jason Calacanis** (2:11)
Give everybody a little overview of Cloud Kitchens and the business and how it's going, because people are obviously addicted to ordering food at home, and it's quite a trend.

**Travis Kalanick** (2:23)
Yeah, I mean, the high level for it, the way to think about it is it's about the future of food. What does the future of food look like? You go, well, in 100 years, we'll start way out there. In 100 years, you're going to have very high quality food, very low cost, that's incredibly convenient, and there are going to be machines that make it, there are going to be machines that get it to you, and it's going to be exactly to your dietary preferences, your food preferences, et cetera, and it just comes to you, and it's so inexpensive that it approaches or has surpassed the cost of going to the grocery store. That's more of a like a today analogy. So you go, 100 years, of course, that's the thing. Nobody's going to be making food. What about 20? What about 10? And so the company is real estate, software, and robotics. That's all about the future food. And if you can get the quality there, and you can get that cost down to start approaching the cost of going to the grocery store, you do to the kitchen what Uber did to the car. And that's the thing. Travis, do you have a- And it's like a grind. It's like a lot, you know, bits and atoms in the Uber world. This is like five times more atoms per bit. This is like heavy-duty industrial stuff. Probably more along the lines of like, you know, where Elon goes in some of his companies. Like they're super interesting tech, but you got to grind out those atoms.

**Chamath Palihapitiya** (3:52)
Do you see people actually cooking in the future, or does it become a centralized service? And is it optimized to people's health? And what do you think the implications to the food supply are if your vision holds? How do you think about all those things?

**Travis Kalanick** (4:05)
Look, people will cook in the future as a hobby. I sort of make a joke at the office. I'm like, I like horses. I love horses, but I don't ride a horse to work. And it's going to be a little bit like that. Whereas you can cook.
It's a soulful thing to do. It's just very human. But, you know, it's late. You know, mom gets home late from the office, needs to get the kids, you know, a nutritious meal. She doesn't have to cook it now. And she doesn't, she won't have to cook it. And she won't have to go to McDonald's either. It will be high quality and convenient and low cost all at the same time. And yes, dietary preference, everything, because it will be hyper-personalized. Like the way the internet is in content, plus, plus, plus in terms of your specific preferences for what you want.