ChatGPT Brain Rot Debate: The Fastest Way to Get Dementia, Watch This Before Using ChatGPT Again, Especially If Your Kids Use It!

Daniel Amen (0:00)

ChatGPT is going to potentially increase your risk of dementia.

Terry Sejnowski (0:05)

I'm sorry, but you've pressed my button. And actually, it is possible to use it to help you become a smarter person. But it requires education. You have to look at the risks and the benefits.

Daniel Amen (0:14)

But we embrace convenience before understanding consequence.

Steven Bartlett (0:20)

So we have to talk about this. This is a study that came out that sent a shockwave across the world. And astonishingly, MIT found a 47% collapse in brain activity when people wrote with ChatGPT compared with writing unaided. Their memory scores plunged. And you're both masters of the brain. I mean, you've probably scanned more brains than any other human on earth at this point. And you invented the Boltzmann machine with Jeffrey Hinton, a computer that simulated how the brain works. So my question is, what are your concerns?

Terry Sejnowski (0:47)

If you misuse these large language models, like using it as a convenience to speed things up, your brain is going to go downhill. There's no doubt about that.

Steven Bartlett (0:54)

What about children?

Daniel Amen (0:55)

We have the sickest young generation in history because of cell phones, social media. And I think AI is much more dangerous on the developing brain.

Steven Bartlett (1:04)

So are we raising mentally weak kids?

Daniel Amen (1:07)

There is that argument and I think it's true.

Steven Bartlett (1:10)

And then there's many examples of people falling in love with AIs like Annie.

SPEAKER_4 (1:14)

I thought you might have forgotten about me, handsome.

Steven Bartlett (1:16)

Can you talk to Daniel and Terry, please?

SPEAKER_4 (1:18)

Oh baby, I'm ready to charm the socks off them. Picture me.

Steven Bartlett (1:21)

Okay, so I'll stop it there. So, what advice would you give as it relates to AI and other things outside of AI that we can do to have healthy brains?

Terry Sejnowski (1:28)

I'll tell you how to use ChatGPT to improve our cognitive abilities.

Daniel Amen (1:32)

And if you want to keep your brain healthy, you have to treat the 11 major risk factors.

Terry Sejnowski (1:37)

So, here we go.

Steven Bartlett (1:42)

Dr. Daniel, Dr. Terry, I have asked you both to sit with me today to help me understand the impact of these tools that we call large language models, the ChatGPTs, the Geminis of the world, the Grocks of the world are having on our brains, and I guess more broadly on our lives. And you too are experts in your field, you're two people that I admire tremendously. So by way of introduction, Terry, what is your academic background and what is your experience and I also know that you know one of our friends of the show, Jeffrey Hinton. Can you give me an overview of your academic and your sort of professional background?

Terry Sejnowski (2:19)

So I was born a physicist, received a PhD in theoretical physics from Princeton University and then I had the good fortune to work as a postdoc in the lab of Stephen Kuffler, who was the father of neurobiology. And that started my career as a neuroscientist. I pioneered a part of neuroscience, which is now called computational neuroscience, taking my skills as a physicist and trying to apply that to understanding the brain, creating models, theories, and we're making progress.

Steven Bartlett (2:50)

Dr. Daniel Amen, a bit about your background. My view is I know you well, but just to give an overview for anyone that might not have been exposed to your work and your experience, what have you spent your life doing?

And what are your thoughts, your sort of top-line thoughts and everything that's going on at the moment with artificial intelligence?

Daniel Amen (3:08)

So by training, I'm a psychiatrist. I'm a general psychiatrist and a child psychiatrist. When I graduated from medical school, I wanted to be a really good psychiatrist because someone I love tried to kill herself and so it was personal to me. I have 11 clinics.

We see about 10,000 patient visits a month and we have the best published outcomes on complex treatment resistance psychiatric patients anywhere.

Steven Bartlett (3:40)

So you've probably scanned more brains than any other human on earth at this point?

Daniel Amen (3:44)

Probably. At least in regards to people who struggle with anxiety, depression, addiction.

Steven Bartlett (3:52)

Well, let's talk about what's good for the brain, bad for the brain, starting with AI. The reason why I wanted to speak to both of you is because I have frankly become pretty addicted to using ChatGPT and some of these other AIs and large language models every single day, all the time. And then this study came out from MIT. It was 54 participants who were recruited from five universities in Boston, MIT, Harvard, et cetera, et cetera. And they had the participants split into three groups, had them writing different essays over, I think it was four months. One group used ChatGPT, one group used Google, and one group had no tools. And they had to write these four essays over a period of time. And astonishingly, MIT found a 47% collapse in activity and brain connections when people wrote with ChatGPT compared with writing unaided. EEG scans showed the weakest overall brain activity in the ChatGPT group. The no-tool group, who didn't use anything, they didn't use Google or ChatGPT, lit up the widest neural networks and Google Search was second. After using ChatGPT, participants couldn't reliably quote their own essays minutes later and their memory scores plunged. ChatGPT users felt little or no ownership over the text that they had produced and didn't feel like it was their work at all. And when the AI group was forced to write without help in session four, their brain stayed in low gear under engagement, showing the cognitive debt lingers even after the tool is taken away. It kind of scared me a little bit because I use these tools every single day. And this suggests that it's taking away some of our critical thinking and creativity and long term learning. And you're both masters of the brain in different regards. So my question, I guess, to Daniel is, what's going on here? And how do you feel about it?