Can the US Survive Donald Trump? With Pod Save the US’ Ben Rhodes (Part Two)

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**Mia Sorenti** (1:23)
Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm Senior Producer Mia Sorenti. In this episode, we return for part two of our live event with former White House Deputy National Security Advisor and co-host of Pod Save the US, Ben Rhodes. As the US marked 250 years since Independence Day, Rhodes joined us at Union Chapel to discuss America's past, present and democratic future. He was in conversation with journalists and co-host of Pod Save the UK, Koko Kahn.
If you haven't heard part one, we recommend jumping back an episode to catch up. But now let's return to the conversation, live at Union Chapel in London.

**Koko Kahn** (2:04)
Presumably, you know, pulling this book together, you would have seen these wonderful, powerful speeches that told a story about America, but also at the same time seen how criticized they were. And I wonder if currently politics is so afraid of the criticism. In this alternate timeline, Andy Burnham tomorrow is going to do his first speech, tap, tap, tap, listen, guys, we just need to be honest, Britain is clapped. We're really clapped. We are having a bad time. We're not relevant. No one really likes us. We probably need to get some better friends. Since the global financial crisis, what are we really doing, guys?
It just wouldn't happen. It's truthful.
It would meet people where they are and their feelings about how much their life has declined since 2008, certainly for young people. We all felt that. Many of us, my generation, graduated into that credit crunch and felt like it's all been downhill since. But the press would eat him up. It would be a field day for him, not a patriot, such a negative Nelly. I suppose my question is, has it always been the case that there's been this robust pushback for all these great speakers? Or is there something unique now that makes it even harder to do this job?

**Ben Rhodes** (3:18)
I think that it's always been there.
And I'd say that any speech in any political communication, whether by a politician or by an activist, that ended up changing things, received that kind of criticism in the time.
If you're so afraid of that scenario, you will never say anything interesting, and people will lose interest in what you're saying. If you go out and you just tell people how change is coming, we're right around the corner, you know, Britain's back or America's back, it might go down well, but it won't stick. It won't lead into anything else. I mean, my advice would be, you know, what communication kind of works in these moments. First of all, don't start by telling people what you want to do. You have to give people a sense of why you want to do it. You have to be the only person on earth who can deliver the message. Why does Amy Burnham want to be Prime Minister? I think that there's a sense, I think, in watching both the Tories and Labour, that these people want to be Prime Minister. How many of you had six, seven? I've lost track.
Because they want to be Prime Minister.
And, you know, they want this job, and then they want a message that can keep that job as long as they can, right?