Can Europe Defend Itself? Timothy Garton Ash on Europe's Future

Margherita Volpato (0:00)

Europe's past is not past. The borders of vanished empires still surface in election results. The European Union and NATO face a world in which Russia is aggressive. America is less dependable, and Europe's own ability to act remains fragmented. Here in Britain, the political argument has begun to move from whether Brexit worked to what a return might demand. Hi there, I'm Margherita Volpato and welcome to Intelligence Squared, the podcast about ideas that matter. In each episode, we speak to some of the world's most interesting thinkers, not simply about what they've written or created, but about the ideas that drive their work and why they matter now.

In this episode, I'm speaking to Timothy Garton Ash, historian, political writer, guardian columnist, and professor of European Studies Emeritus at the University of Oxford. His new book, Europe in 7½ Chapters, the shortest introduction to the world's oldest and newest continent, condenses a lifetime of studying, traveling, and writing about Europe into an account of a continent that is more united than ever, as well as more divided. Timothy, welcome to Intelligence Squared.

Timothy Garton Ash (1:07)

Great to be with you.

Margherita Volpato (1:09)

Your book begins by asking a deceptively simple question. What is Europe?

When a continent can be described as geographical, historical, cultural, imagined, and political, which Europe are we talking about at any given point?

Timothy Garton Ash (1:25)

Well, exactly. All of the above, obviously. But what I actually start is having lunch with the reader.

You have a pizza Margherita and a Budweiser. And in case you're wondering, and I ask you, what do you think of spontaneously when I say Europe? And that's a very interesting experiment, because people think of all sorts of different things. They might think of a, often they think of a city. They think of Paris or Berlin or Prague, or they might think of history, or they might think of a beach on a Mediterranean island, or they might think of from occasionally the European Union. And of course, it's all those things. The simple question requires a very complicated set of answers.

What I think of most of all when I say Europe is being at home abroad, right? So the wonderful thing for me about Europe is, I mean, in a couple of weeks time, I'm in Spain in Oviedo, then I'll be in Budapest, then I'll be in Berlin, then I'll be in Munich. Everywhere I'm abroad, but as a European, I'm also at home.

Margherita Volpato (2:36)

That's such a lovely sentiment and one that I think many can agree with.

I'm intrigued by your title, which also calls Europe both the world's oldest and newest continent. What do you mean by old? What do you mean by new? And how can we make sense of this paradox? How can we kind of begin to unpick Europe in this way?

Timothy Garton Ash (2:59)

So I go on to say it's the largest and smallest and most united and most divided. So at least three paradoxes for you. Listen, I'm so glad you're intrigued by the title.

Oldest continent, obviously not in the sense of the rocks being anywhere older than anywhere else in North America or Asia, whatever, but in the sense that the division of the world into continents starts in Europe, really with the father of history, the ancient Greek historian Herodotus about 2,500 years ago, who says, we're Europe, and then there's Asia, by which he primarily meant Persia in the first instance. And then he said, there's Libya, by which he meant what we call Africa. So it's the oldest in the sense of self-identifying, if you like, as a continent. And actually, you know, Asia, Africa, the Americas, as I go on to say, these all European ideas. I mean, why the hell is it called America? Because a German map maker decided to call it after Amerigo Vespucci, right? Even the biggest name check in history.

So that's the oldest. Why the newest? Because what we've done since 1945, in the way we've come together in Europe as a community of liberal democracies, particularly in the European Union, not only the Council of Europe, et cetera, et cetera, is unprecedented in all of European history and unique in today's world. You know, there's no other continent. I mean, there's something called the African Union, but there's not someone called an African citizen who can travel freely from one end of the continent to the other and decide to settle down there and get a job and hitch up with someone and make their life there. That's unique to Europe. So, oldest and newest.

Margherita Volpato (5:00)

That's great. I think, I'm always really intrigued when you write about the idea that nothing like the European Union exists and so that's what makes it both this kind of paradox. I think anytime you write about Europe, it kind of brings to mind this idea of like a palimpsest, that thing of like a writing that is kind of scraped off and allowed to be written on top of new. I think you also write that the borders of vanished empires can still be seen in the Europe that we know today, be it in election results or in the way we construct ourselves.