Author Michael Lewis (‘The Big Short’) Pulls Back the Curtain

Michael Lewis (0:00)

What happened to Talk Easy? You're not talking so easy anymore.

Sam Fragoso (0:05)

Can I tell you what happened? Time, Michael, time.

Michael Lewis (0:09)

You're gonna be a cranky old man.

Sam Fragoso (0:11)

Time. He consults Claude.

Michael Lewis (0:16)

I was at this show, this was a different show three years ago.

Sam Fragoso (0:19)

Oh, Michael, we're gonna talk about your mother, relax.

We're gonna get, so who hurt you as a kid? We're gonna get there, don't worry.

Michael Lewis (0:28)

Okay, I'm so sorry.

Sam Fragoso (0:35)

Welcome to the show.

Today, writer Michael Lewis. He's the author of several best-selling books, including Liars Poker, Moneyball, The Blind Side, and The Big Short. His latest is called Blockers. It's a return to the subject he first explored in The Fifth Risk, which is the federal government, and of course, the largely invisible public servants who keep it all running, or at least try to keep it all running, before what Lewis describes as the meteor strike of the second Trump administration.

Viewed through the eyes of six workers across several agencies, including the IRS and the NIH, the book uncovers the ways in which the Department of Government Efficiency, or DOJ, briefly led by the inimitable Elon Musk, ran roughshod across the federal government and targeted those deemed insufficiently loyal or pliant or, you know, blockers. Fittingly, Musk is back in the news with the release of Alex Gibney's new documentary, Musk, and Luca Guadagnino's latest film, Artificial. So today, we talk about the wrecking ball that was DOJ, mass firings across the federal government, the battle over public and private data, and why the people dismissed as blockers, quote unquote, became the characters Lewis wanted to better understand. Then, after the break, we try to do the same with Michael. How he finds his characters, what past controversies have taught him about reporting, and why, after nearly 20 books, he remains drawn to people working against a grain. Before I turn it over to the episode, I want to say that Talk Easy was recently named a finalist for three Signal Awards this year, including Best Host, Interview or Talk Show, and Best Video Podcast Host. I think we're up against Oprah in two of those categories. And so if you want to give us a fighting chance, voting is now open through Thursday, October 15th. If you like what we do here and want to support, you can head on over to the link below or go to vote.signalaward.com.

If that all sounds like too much, or if you want to save your vote for the midterms, the second best thing you can do is subscribe to the show on Apple or Spotify. If you're on Spotify, actually, there's a little bell at the top of your screen. Be sure to click that so that new episodes get notified and pop up at the top of your feed. If you want to watch us on YouTube, you can do that. Our page is Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso on YouTube. Of course, if you want to reach out, my email is talkeasypod at gmail.com. Now, on to the show.

Michael Lewis.

Michael Lewis (3:17)

Sam.

Sam Fragoso (3:18)

Welcome back to the show.

Michael Lewis (3:19)

I didn't think it was possible. I thought you picked me over like a chicken in a Chinese restaurant the last time I was here, and then I think there was anything left of me.

Sam Fragoso (3:29)

Yet, you remain fully formed.

Michael Lewis (3:31)

I just don't know what we're going to talk about.

Sam Fragoso (3:33)

Oh, you need not concern yourself.

Michael Lewis (3:37)

I assume that is your problem. But I have to say that I have said this to other people. I'm not just saying this to you. It was one of the most delightful interviews I've ever done. It was interesting how much you knew about me.

In some cases, I didn't know about myself.

That was an interesting experience. I loved talking about my parents, for example. That was great. It was a different kind of thing.

Sam Fragoso (4:00)

I think this is the third time you've been on the podcast.

Michael Lewis (4:03)

All right.

Sam Fragoso (4:04)

This is roughly the third or fourth book you've written about government agencies and civil servants in the Trump era.

Can we go back to where this project began? I think it's January 2017, Inauguration Day, and you just had a hip replacement surgery.

Michael Lewis (4:24)

Yes.

Sam Fragoso (4:25)

There you are, watching the broadcast, high on some drug, I don't know which.

Michael Lewis (4:30)

What was the opioid that caused the epidemic?