Atheist vs Christian vs Spiritual Thinker: The Paperclip Problem That Exposes Religion!

Steven Bartlett (0:00)

Nine in ten young people in the UK believe that their life is lacking purpose, and a lot of people are turning back to religion. There is something going on.

Greg Koukl (0:07)

This is about the most important thing that anyone can ever find out about their life. And God has made us for a purpose, and the purpose flows from that meaning.

Alex J. O'Connor (0:15)

I kind of reject that, because this is a perfect example of a solution being provided without explaining exactly why it provides a solution. And that's what people are doing in religious traditions.

Alok Kanojia (0:25)

I hard disagree. For me, finding meaning and purpose is like a very practical thing.

Steven Bartlett (0:29)

And that's what I want to talk about today.

SPEAKER_5 (0:31)

We are joined by an atheist, Christian and spiritual thinker to find an answer to the purpose crisis millions are facing today.

Greg Koukl (0:38)

One of the reasons that I'm a Christian is because it's the best explanation for the way things are.

Alex J. O'Connor (0:42)

But if Christianity were true, we would not expect the kind of suffering that is present in the world.

Steven Bartlett (0:47)

So I'm very curious. What if I died of cancer at one year old?

Greg Koukl (0:50)

So someone violated God's commands and that had an impact on the world.

Alex J. O'Connor (0:54)

So children get cancer because a few million years ago someone ate a fruit. If you want religion to provide existential comfort for people who are suffering, you have to do more in the face of children dying of cancer than some reference to mythical human beings.

Greg Koukl (1:06)

But if your world view does not have a way of making sense or moral intuitions about suffering, it's not an adequate world view.

Alok Kanojia (1:13)

What I would say science and spirituality can really add is it's effective in terms of reducing suicidality, improving resilience, giving them a reason to wake up in the morning, and we'll get into that.

Steven Bartlett (1:23)

And Alex, if someone's listening now and they feel lost in their life, is there any advice that you could give them?

Alex J. O'Connor (1:27)

So as an atheist, I'm offering a psychological explanation. So I would recommend that they...

Alok Kanojia (1:32)

You're spot on, Alex. So the first thing to understand is it is an internal feeling. We found in our study that if you f*** your sense of purpose, it increases by 68%.

Steven Bartlett (1:44)

Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning in to the show week after week. It means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you. I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.

Greg, Alex. The reason I wanted to speak to all three of you today is to discuss meaning and purpose. And there's some stats that I wanted to share that kind of frame the discussion. Three in five young Americans believe that their life lacks purpose. Nine in 10 young people in the UK believe that their life is lacking purpose. And when I look across other stats as it relates to things like mental health, 59% of Brits said they lived a meaningful life compared to just 25% who said they did not. In an October 21 survey, 34% of men in the UK said life had no meaning compared to 18% of women. And 50% of the same group who said that their lives lack purpose and meaning said that their poor mental health was linked to not knowing what to do with their life. And to give some further stats, which I found really interesting, around the rise of religiosity, in the UK, a belief in God amongst 18 to 24-year-olds has risen from 18% in 2021 to 37% in 2025, according to YouGov. And in the UK, monthly church attendance has risen from 4% up to 15% in 2025 There is something going on, and that's what I want to talk about today. But before we do that, I'd love to understand the perspective that all of you bring to this conversation. So if I start with yourself, Alok.