Are We Living in an Ancestor Simulation? ft. Neil deGrasse Tyson | Space Time

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Matt O'Dowd (1:03)

This episode is supported by LegalZoom. As our video games become more and more lifelike, it's becoming clear that at some point, perhaps soon, our simulations will be indistinguishable from reality. If that's true, how do we know it didn't already happen? Could we be in a simulation now?

Before I get into details, I want to share with you a conversation I recently had about this idea with my colleague at the Hayden Planetarium in New York City. In fact, with its director, Neil deGrasse Tyson, along with comedian Eugene Merman, as part of Neil's Startalk radio show.

SPEAKER_4 (1:44)

I'm Leo Zusa on Instagram. How about the recent articles about the possibility of us being part of a simulation and the Big Bang being just the seeding event of such simulation? Thanks.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (1:58)

I'm totally there. I'm digging it every minute.

SPEAKER_4 (2:00)

You don't like it?

SPEAKER_2 (2:01)

I'm loving it. I want to hear your opinions.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (2:03)

I'm loving it.

Matt O'Dowd (2:04)

I want to hear this.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (2:04)

I'm loving it.

Matt O'Dowd (2:05)

Well, so who made the simulation?

Neil deGrasse Tyson (2:08)

Some snot-nosed kid in the parents' basement of an alien civilization. Who's bored and they're more advanced than we are, and they have way more computing power than we are. Right.

Matt O'Dowd (2:20)

So it's like a little handheld Nintendo you can do. Exactly.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (2:23)

So they program in enough detail to completely simulate every molecule in this universe and we are here for their entertainment. What else can you explain where things are going on just fine in the world, then all of a sudden, there's a complete disruption.

Matt O'Dowd (2:38)

The Stott-Nose kids.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (2:39)

Culturally, politically, economically, a complete disruption. I think that they throw it in for entertainment. That's what I think.

Matt O'Dowd (2:46)

Okay.

I have two things to say. Firstly, I predict that you don't believe that. That's my first prediction. But I don't want to put thoughts in your head.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (2:56)

There's an argument for why that's more likely than any other scenario. I'll tell you that in a minute, but go on.

Matt O'Dowd (3:01)

The numbers game. Okay. So the idea that if you need to produce one universe capable of producing universe simulations.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (3:08)

That's all you need.

Matt O'Dowd (3:09)

And if that universe produces billions of universe simulations, then any universe that you happen to find yourself in is more likely to simulate one other.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (3:16)

Than the one universe that started at all.

SPEAKER_4 (3:18)

If the way that virtual reality now exists and video games have advanced, it is likely that in say a thousand years, whatever our virtual reality would be.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (3:27)

Or 30 years.

SPEAKER_4 (3:28)

30 years, I was being generous. Well, 30 years, whatever it was would potentially be physical, like you would be able to feel it.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (3:36)

Okay, so. No, no, no, it doesn't even require that. It just requires that what you program in there has an, in your Nintendo, whatever it is, has enough complexity that in the mind of the characters in that game, they think they're real. Right. And have free will.

Matt O'Dowd (3:52)

It can't simulate the whole universe because to simulate the universe perfectly, you need a computer the size of a universe.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (3:57)

Do you? Do you?

Matt O'Dowd (3:58)

Yes.

Neil deGrasse Tyson (4:00)

I don't know.

Matt O'Dowd (4:00)

Because, I mean, assuming it's a perfect... The conversation goes in lots of fun directions. You can check out more on Startalk radio. Link in the description. Now, Neil uses an entertaining example of us being a Sims game for hyper-advanced alien basement dwellers. That's a hilarious image. But he's illustrating a very serious point. That under certain assumptions, virtual minds should vastly outnumber real minds in our universe. If so, shouldn't we be virtual minds?