Amazon Was Supposed to Kill the Bookstore. James Daunt Had Other Plans | Better in Person

Stephen Dubner (0:00)

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Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner, and this is a bonus episode of our new TV talk show, Better in Person. If you wanna watch the video, which is a whole different experience, it is on the Freakonomics YouTube channel, or look for Better in Person on Apple Podcasts. My guest today is James Daunt, a name you may not know, but after listening to this episode, I think you will understand why I was so excited to speak with him. As always, thanks for listening.

James Daunt (0:48)

I think 30 years ago, all the bookstore chains were ruling the world, and the idea that I would then be running them all is, yes, fanciful, and indeed, I may wake up at some point and find it was all some sort of weird mushroom that I ate last night.

Stephen Dubner (1:02)

Did you have a mushroom last night?

James Daunt (1:04)

I did not. Well, not that sort anyway. This is Better in Person with Stephen Dubner and James Daunt.

Stephen Dubner (1:14)

James Daunt is not a household name, at least in most households, but he always has been in mind.

Years ago, he opened a small independent bookshop in London, Daunt Books, which many people consider their very favorite bookstore. From there, he somehow went on to revive two of the biggest bookstore chains in the world, Waterstones in the UK and Barnes & Noble in the US.

You could argue that James Daunt helped save the very idea of the bookstore, maybe the printed book itself. So, how did that happen? I wanted him to start from the beginning, so I asked what his sales pitch was when he first opened Daunt Books.

James Daunt (1:54)

That this is going to be an amazing bookstore, we're going to absolutely nail it, and we're going to go and take over every other bookstore in the Western world.

Stephen Dubner (2:01)

Real?

James Daunt (2:01)

No. That was not what we were saying.

But the idea was to create a nice bookstore and hopefully it would work.

Stephen Dubner (2:10)

I love that it came out the way it did. I don't understand how you could have such confidence at opening a bookstore in 1990

James Daunt (2:16)

It was deeply foolish and born of naivety, and those who thought it would end in tears were nearly right. I left university with zero plan. What did you study? A history.

Stephen Dubner (2:27)

Oxford?

James Daunt (2:28)

Cambridge.

Stephen Dubner (2:29)

Cambridge, sorry.

James Daunt (2:32)

That's a very UK, but I had no idea what I wanted to do. But there were these things called banks, no idea what they did. But one of them was hiring and you could come and live in New York and that seemed really quite exciting. So I joined JP Morgan.

Stephen Dubner (2:49)

So what were those four years of work like? Did you enjoy it? Did you think about a career in banking?

James Daunt (2:54)

I thought it was completely fantastic. It was engaging, it was compulsive. It was really interesting, but it turns out only interesting to other bankers.

My then-girlfriend really didn't find it interesting at all. She thought it was boring beyond belief and said no.

Stephen Dubner (3:16)

Wait a minute. I was under the impression that the girlfriend who said that is your current wife or is it a different person?

James Daunt (3:20)

I've only had one girlfriend or one wife.

Stephen Dubner (3:23)

You only had one girlfriend even?

James Daunt (3:24)

Yes.

Stephen Dubner (3:28)

Okay. So.

James Daunt (3:29)

I'm really dull.

Stephen Dubner (3:32)

So, no, I'm not passing any judgment at all. I think it's wonderful. But you quit the job you love that was exciting because your girlfriend ultimately your wife thought it was a boring job.

James Daunt (3:46)

Then she wasn't wrong.

Really having sort of left to try and think about what to do. I love reading a lot of books. I love traveling, but that I couldn't quite see how to parlay that into a future. But a bookstore I could see, so I thought I'd give it a go.

Stephen Dubner (4:04)

Was it a hit from the beginning?

James Daunt (4:06)

No, it took maybe five years to really get going. To begin with, I took a lease on in 1989 when everything was up, and I opened in 1990 when everything was down. There was the first Gulf War. It was a big recession. Actually, that helps me now as somebody running a company because I really remember what bad is like.