#946 - Dennis McKenna

Joe Rogan (0:00)

It just seems, the problem with the marijuana is, five, four, three, two, one.

Dennis McKenna, ladies and gentlemen. Before we were just discussing how, I was saying that marijuana can be your friend, and it can enhance your life. But if you take too much, it's such a seductive little creature, because a little bit of it is like, ah, this is nice, this feels good. But if you get too crazy, especially if you get too crazy with edibles, it'll take you and take you away. On this wild journey of paranoia, and it'll lock you up.

Some people just need to take a couple weeks off. Just relax.

Dennis McKenna (0:39)

That's always a good idea.

Joe Rogan (0:40)

It is a good idea, right?

Dennis McKenna (0:41)

Yeah, yeah. I think people underestimate cannabis. I think it can be, like you say, it can really sort of knock you off your center, especially if it's edible. And like all these things, you gotta learn how to use it. Yeah. I mean, it's basically, that's what you gotta do. You have to learn how to use it.

But you know, you know, that's my raps.

Joe Rogan (1:02)

Yeah, it is your rap, but it's a great rap. It really is. It's so important. I think it's so important for people to realize that you gotta let, like regular you, like you, like natural sober you, it's important to be in touch with that.

Like you don't want to always be high or always be caffeinated or always be anything.

Dennis McKenna (1:23)

Well, exactly. I mean, where people get to these places and they fail to do a reality check on themselves.

I mean, I get emails from people all the time. I said, well, life's been pretty weird lately. I took mushrooms five times last week. And it's like, dude, how about you lay off for a while and give yourself a chance because they tell these stories and it's like the idea of, OK, let's find your center, go back to baseline, lay off the sauce, whatever it is you're taking, and just chill out and try and rediscover your center. It seems like common sense advice, but people don't do that.

Joe Rogan (2:07)

It does seem like common sense advice, but common sense is not common. I think everybody knows that.

Dennis McKenna (2:12)

Yes, all you have to do is look around to realize that.

Joe Rogan (2:15)

What is it about people, though, that once they indulge in any sort of... I mean, it doesn't even have to be a substance. It could be an activity, like gambling, for instance.

Like, once it gets in your bones, it just seems like you're so compelled to just continue that behavior, and the idea of stopping is almost more painful than the idea of wrecking your life.

Dennis McKenna (2:39)

This is addiction. This is basically these things are reinforcing.

They activate those pleasure circuits, you know, in the brain, mediated mainly through dopamine, and all of these, I mean, the so-called drugs of abuse, which I think is terrible work, terrible. But, you know, the reinforcing drugs, the pleasure drugs, work directly or indirectly through the dopamine circuits, and the dopamine is like your button for pleasure, you know, in the same way that serotonin is kind of on the opposite side. It's your button for more like euphoria, feeling good, but not the, it doesn't have the punch, I guess, which is why people can get addicted to gambling, they can get addicted to sex, they can get addicted to television, all of these things, it doesn't have to be substances, because they all hit those same circuits, you know, except the psychedelics, which don't work on that reward circuitry. They work on a different set of circuits.

Joe Rogan (3:44)

But yet, even with those, your behavior patterns can become addictive, and then you can start just doing psychedelics too much, and it's not even the psychedelics that are doing it, it's just this compulsive need to constantly change your state of mind.

Dennis McKenna (3:59)

Yeah, that's quite true. And if people, you know, the way to use psychedelics is, there are many ways to use it, but basically use it thoughtfully.

You know, I mean, you can, all the question about recreational use versus spiritual use versus therapeutic use. I mean, these are all ways to approach it.

And I am not a person who says, you must do it this way, you must do it that way. What I do say is do it from an informed place and do approach it thoughtfully, you know, because I mean, in other words, don't, you know, plan for it. Respect the medicine in a certain way, you know, use it in a circumstance where you can learn from the medicine rather than have the medicine be sort of a, you know, overlay over whatever else you're doing. I mean, this is something that demands attention, and I think that's the best way to use psychedelics. And for whatever, you know, whatever spin you put on it, is it spiritual, is it therapeutic, is it recreational, is it shamanic, these are all labels. The important thing is that, you know, you have the, you approach the medicine itself. The medicine is the teacher, right? Not the sitter, not the shaman, not the psychotherapist. If they're doing the right, their job correctly, in my opinion, their job is to let you have your encounter with the medicine. And the medicine is what you learn from. They're there to facilitate that. They can intervene if you get anxious or if things go on, make sure nobody comes to the door, that kind of thing.