#883: How to Legalize Medical Psychedelics in Your Country — Tania de Jong on The Playbook Behind Australia's World-First Breakthrough

Tim Ferriss (0:00)

Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. My guest today is Tania de Jong, co-founder of Mind Medicine Australia. She and her husband, Peter, did something amazing. They beat the odds, and they came from the outside to lead a push that in 2023, made Australia the first country in the world to allow MDMA and psilocybin to be prescribed for psychiatric conditions. This was a huge moment. It took the whole world by surprise, and I wanted to understand how the hell did this happen? What did they do? What were the strategies? Was there a blueprint? Was it luck? Was it methodical step after step after step? What did they do? Is there a blueprint for making this type of massive change? Or are there strategies, at least, bits and pieces that you can apply in your own countries or to any ambitious project you might be trying to get off the ground? Because Tania came into this field as an entrepreneur and a singer. She had no background in psychedelic research or psychedelics or drugs at large, and ultimately helped build a massive campaign that changed an entire country. So we get into the practical details, as you know.

That's the point of the show. We get into how did she manage to book first meetings? How did she identify the right people, recruit people who know more than she did at the time to be allies? How did they respond when regulators said no? And more, that's just the beginning. There are some very unlikely turns along the way. There are some wild stories along the way. And as I mentioned, even if you don't care anything about psychedelics, if you're trying to get something really big off the ground and you feel like the underdog, if maybe the deck is stacked against you, there is plenty in this conversation. Before I get the show notes for this episode will contain all the exact dates that come up. Tania and I both mentioned articles and events from more than a decade ago, so some of them are slightly off, but a lot of them are right. But nonetheless, show notes, tim.blog.com, podcast, you can find all the specifics. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Tania. I did. There's a lot of tactical takeaway to be applied and you can also find her online and everything she's up to at mindmedicineaustralia.org.au.

Thanks for listening. Optimal, minimal.

At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half-mile before my hands start shaking.

Tania de Jong (2:29)

Can I answer your personal question?

Tim Ferriss (2:47)

Where do you think it makes sense to begin? I mean, we could just begin with the Trip Treatment and how that domino knocked over so many dominoes.

Tania de Jong (2:56)

It did.

Tim Ferriss (2:56)

And then what you did with all the momentum of said dominoes. Do you want to just begin there and we'll just chat through it?

Tania de Jong (3:04)

In 2015, I came across your blog.

Well, I'd been signing up to your blog for ages. I mean, you know, I've been reading your books and admiring your biohacking courage to try all different things and experiment for yourself because that's very much how I also like to operate. I just don't believe anything until I try it myself. So, being that person that had never had any alcohol really, don't drink coffee, never got high, never had any drugs in my whole life until I read your Five Fuller Blog back in December, I think it was 2015 when you said that you had donated 100,000 US dollars to the Imperial College with psilocybin for depression. I think it was, Tim.

Tim Ferriss (4:00)

2015 would have been Johns Hopkins with Roland Griffiths. So, there was a depression study there.

Tania de Jong (4:08)

That's right. So, that was like a light bulb went off for me, and I clicked on the link, and I read the article, and it was a fascinating article in the New Yorker magazine called The Trip Treatment.

Tim Ferriss (4:21)

Michael Pollan, the one and only.

Tania de Jong (4:23)

That's right, by Michael Pollan.

And I said to my husband, we have to do this. Please read this article. And he just, I think he thought I lost it. And he read the article, and then he said, why don't you see if we can get into a trial?

And so we then approached Robin Carhart-Harris, who has subsequently become a great friend of ours. But at that time, it was, well, can we get into one of the trials in Europe? And he said, well, no, you don't qualify. You don't have a mental illness diagnosis. And then he proceeded to see if he could introduce us to the Psychedelic Society. And finally, we were introduced to a guide in the Netherlands. And we flew over to Europe. And we had this extraordinary experience where we took a large dose of psilocybin. But for me, I had spent the previous six months when we planned this, just getting more and more nervous. I was just petrified.