690. It’s Show Business, Baby!

Jenna Weiss-Berman (0:04)

AI is so stupid.

Stephen Dubner (0:06)

You think?

Jenna Weiss-Berman (0:06)

Oh, come on.

Stephen Dubner (0:08)

All right, let's hear about that. Oh, man.

Jenna Weiss-Berman (0:12)

Tell me when you want me to stop trolling. You know, I'm a natural born bully.

Stephen Dubner (0:16)

I've come to see that.

Jenna Weiss-Berman (0:18)

I believe in justice. I do bullying for justice.

Stephen Dubner (0:24)

This person, this bully for justice is my friend, Jenna Weiss-Berman. She is a podcast producer. We'll get to her very strong feelings about AI later.

Jenna Weiss-Berman (0:34)

What's this episode about?

Stephen Dubner (0:35)

It's a podcast about podcasts. We get about 10 to 20 emails a year of people saying, I listen to your show and I don't understand how it works. It sounds like you all work kind of hard, but like, how do you get paid? Do you get paid?

Jenna Weiss-Berman (0:48)

No, you just do it for free. That's so sweet.

Stephen Dubner (0:51)

For the record, no, we don't make this show for free.

So how does it all work? Let's pull back for a second. The entire podcast industry grosses maybe $9 billion a year globally. As industries go, that is relatively tiny. It's smaller than the bowling industry, smaller than the US pet grooming and boarding industry. It is much smaller than the US funeral home industry.

But we're also talking about a relatively new industry. 2004 is generally considered the year that podcasting started. As of today, there are an estimated 620 million global listeners. For some people, it replaces talk radio or TV. For others, it opens new windows onto totally new worlds and new kinds of conversations. And for some listeners, a podcast is a place to ask questions. For instance, a Freakonomics Radio listener named Jerry recently sent us this email. There often seems to be a conceit that podcast hosts are scrappy individuals who are running the podcast from their home, she writes. But recently, I've been paying more attention to the long list of production credits that are acknowledged at the end, who is funding all these people. Jerry had a lot of other questions about podcasts. Maybe you do too. So today, on Freakonomics Radio, a producer, an agent, an economist, a media executive and an AI evangelist walk into a recording studio and tell us everything they know about podcasting.

Maybe we should start with some etymology.

Will Page (2:25)

It merges iPod, which you can only buy in porn stores now, with broadcast, which it isn't. So both words that emerge to make podcasts make zero sense to anyone.

Stephen Dubner (2:35)

Do you have a better word? Until there is a better word for it, this podcast starts now.

SPEAKER_4 (2:55)

This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything, with your host, Stephen Dubner.

Stephen Dubner (3:11)

I met Jenna Weiss-Berman a few years ago at a party for, big surprise here, people who make podcasts. So what exactly does she do?

Jenna Weiss-Berman (3:21)

I like to help people figure out what their podcasts are going to be.

I'm a pod doc. Oh my gosh. Cut that.

Stephen Dubner (3:31)

That word is worse than podcast.

Jenna Weiss-Berman (3:32)

No, do you know what's worse? A podcast doula. I could have said that.

Stephen Dubner (3:36)

You just did and we have it. Perfect.

Jenna Weiss-Berman (3:40)

That's what I do. I help people bring their podcasts in the world.

Stephen Dubner (3:44)

These days, Weiss-Berman runs a production company called Paper Kite Audio, an offshoot of Amy Poehler's Paper Kite Productions, and she's executive producer of the hit podcast Good Hang with Amy Poehler. So what makes a podcast host a good host?

Jenna Weiss-Berman (4:01)

I think a person has to be very curious, a good listener. They have to be really passionate about doing a podcast.

Amy Poehler was always going to be the best at this. I knew that the day I met her.

Stephen Dubner (4:13)

Do you need to make a good podcast to have a financially successful podcast?

Jenna Weiss-Berman (4:18)

Yes, you do.

That does not mean that you need a famous person at the head of it. Sometimes it helps.

Stephen Dubner (4:25)

Says the person whose podcast won a Golden Globe.

SPEAKER_5 (4:28)

I don't know about award shows, but when they get it right, it makes sense.

Jenna Weiss-Berman (4:33)

No, that's not why it won a Golden Globe. It's because she's so great at it and she's so committed to it.

SPEAKER_5 (4:39)

I want to say that I know I am new to this game. I have great respect for this form. I have great respect for all the people that I am nominated with. I'm big fans of all of you except for NPR.