677. Can Backgammon Save Us from Ourselves?

**Stephen Dubner** (0:06)
There is an ancient board game that you can learn in 15 minutes and then think about for the rest of your life.

**Frank Frigo** (0:12)
I haven't met a human being yet that plays backgammon that the game doesn't get under their skin. That game will get to you.

**Stephen Dubner** (0:20)
Backgammon has had a few heydays in modern history, especially among gamblers.

**Robert Wachtel** (0:25)
She paid me in drugs and a Gucci sweater that her friends had boosted from Rodeo Drive.

**Stephen Dubner** (0:34)
NFL teams have used backgammon theory to win the Super Bowl.

**Frank Frigo** (0:38)
They're risk averse, at least they used to be, before we came on to the scene.

**Stephen Dubner** (0:42)
Now, backgammon is having a whole new renaissance.

**Remington Davenport** (0:46)
People want in-person experiences, they want to get off dating apps, they want to make new friends.

**Stephen Dubner** (0:51)
Today on Freakonomics Radio, we continue our occasional series on games with a simple question. Can backgammon save us from ourselves?
Okay, the dice are yours.

**SPEAKER_5** (1:18)
This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything, with your host, Stephen Dubner.

**Stephen Dubner** (1:36)
This past January, the US. Backgammon Federation held a big tournament, the New York Metropolitan Backgammon Open, at a hotel in Jersey City. It drew more than 400 players in a variety of brackets, from beginner to grandmaster. They came from all over the US., as well as Germany, South Africa, Greece, Peru.
The field included many of the world's top-ranked players, like this one.

**Masayuki Mochizuki** (2:00)
My name is Masayuki Mochizuki, people call me Mochi. I am a professional backgammon player.

**Stephen Dubner** (2:07)
Mochi is arguably the best backgammon player alive. He has turned the game into a career.

**Masayuki Mochizuki** (2:13)
Play tournaments everywhere in the world, teaching, writing a book, playing a private game, and everything about backgammon. That's me.

**Stephen Dubner** (2:22)
Mochi had flown in from Japan for the Jersey City tournament, but he busted out in the first round. That's the thing about backgammon. It is a dice game, which means it can be volatile, and the better player does not always win. I found Mochi in a side room off the tournament area. He was playing a money game with some of the others who had already busted out of the tournament. He told me he was staying on in New York City for a few days, so I invited him to come play backgammon at my apartment.
If you want to just play, great. If you want to teach and talk while we play, I'm happy to play for money. I don't expect you to play for free.

**Masayuki Mochizuki** (3:13)
No, no, it's fine. We can play for free.

**Stephen Dubner** (3:15)
But I mean, I know that's how you make your living, so I don't want to ask you to work for... I have $500 in my pocket. Okay?
I'm not planning to leave with it.

**Masayuki Mochizuki** (3:23)
500 lasts like three minutes, but that's okay. I'm joking.
Nice roll. Come on.

**Stephen Dubner** (3:54)
Things changed very fast.

**Masayuki Mochizuki** (3:58)
Now it's an even game. Yeah, yeah. If you hit, I'm dead.

**SPEAKER_8** (4:03)
Yeah.

**Masayuki Mochizuki** (4:07)
52 This is very scary.

**Stephen Dubner** (4:11)
Yeah.

**Masayuki Mochizuki** (4:12)
Don't be scared. No, I am scared.
Okay. This is going to be a shot anyway, so I got to hit this.

**Stephen Dubner** (4:22)
So this is the roll. If I roll a four, I'm going to win. If I don't roll a four, I'm probably going to lose.

**Masayuki Mochizuki** (4:30)
You're rolling the middle.

**Stephen Dubner** (4:33)
Purgatory. That's okay.

**Masayuki Mochizuki** (4:35)
All right.
Backman is not a game that you decide the strategy. All you can do is you follow the dice's advice, you know? You're not gonna against the dice. The game plan that you had in your mind that you want to, that's long gone.

**Stephen Dubner** (5:00)
Got it, got it, got it.

**Masayuki Mochizuki** (5:02)
That being said, maybe I hit you, actually.

**Stephen Dubner** (5:13)
I was thinking about doing this, that would have been terrible.

**Masayuki Mochizuki** (5:15)
Because if you waited longer, then I have more ammunition to come in, and it will be more dangerous. So it's actually all about timing. This game actually has a lot of similarity in the life.

**Robert Wachtel** (5:29)
To life?

**Masayuki Mochizuki** (5:30)
Life, you don't know what's going to happen. It's all about probability. If you make a good choice, you have a better chance to get a better outcome, right? But it's just a chance. So you may lose because of the good choice, right? But you shouldn't regret that you made that choice because that then was a good choice. So you have to be confident.