#462 – Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson: Politics, Trump, AOC, Elon & DOGE

**Lex Fridman** (0:00)
The following is a conversation with Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson. Ezra is one of the most influential voices representing the left wing of American politics. He is a columnist for The New York Times, author of Why We're Polarized, and host of The Ezra Klein Show. Derek is a writer at The Atlantic, author of Hitmakers and On Work, and host of The Plain English Podcast. Together, they've written a new book, simply titled Abundance, that lays out a kind of manifesto for the left. It is already a controversial, widely debated book, but I think it puts forward a powerful vision for what the Democratic Party could stand for in the coming election. If I may, let me comment on the fact that sometimes in this podcast, I delve into the dark realm of politics. Indeed, politics often devises, and frankly brings out the worst in some very smart people. Plus to me, it is frustrating how much of the political discourse is drama, and how little of it is rigorous, empathetic discussion of policy. I hate this, but I guess I understand why. If the other side is called either Hitler or Stalin online by swarms of chanting mobs, it's hard to carry out a nuanced discussion about immigration, health care, housing, education, foreign policy, and so on. On top of that, anytime I talk about politics, half the audience is pissed off at me. And no, there is no audience capture. I get shit on equally by different groups across the political spectrum depending on the guest. Why, I don't know, but I'm slowly coming to accept that this is the way of the world. I try to maintain my cool, return hate with compassion, and learn from the criticism and the general madness of it all. Still, I think it's valuable to sometimes talk about politics. It's an important part to the big picture of human civilization, but indeed it is only still a small part. My happy place is talking to scientists, engineers, programmers, video game designers, historians, philosophers, musicians, athletes, filmmakers, and so on. So I apologize for the occasional detour into politics, especially over the past few months. I did a few conversations with world leaders and I have a few more coming up. So there will be a few more political podcasts coming out, in part so I can be better prepared to deeply understand the mind, the life, and the perspective of each world leader. I hope you come along with me on this journey into the darkness of politics. As I try to shine a light on the complex human mess of it all, hoping to understand us humans better, always backed of course by deep rigorous research and by empathy. Long term, I hope for political discussions to be only a small percentage of this podcast. If it's not your thing, please just skip these episodes. Or maybe come along anyway, since both you and I are reluctant travelers on this road trip. But who knows what we'll learn together about the world and about ourselves. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description. It is in fact the best way to support this podcast. We got Call of Duty for video game fun, Element for electrolytes, AG1 for a multivitamin drink, and Shopify for selling stuff online. Choose wisely my friends. If you're watching or listening to this on Spotify, I decided to start putting the same ad reads from me at the beginnings as I do on Apple Podcasts and the RSS feed. Since a lot of folks in the survey, lexfridman.com, said they actually like the random non-sequitur things I talk about to my great surprise. And the rest said they were happy to just skip when they felt like it. I do, in fact, make it easy to skip with timestamps on the screen and in the description, and I'm not adding ads in the middle, so hopefully this works for everybody. Let's see. I do try to make the ad reads interesting and personal, often related to stuff I'm reading or thinking about, but if you must skip them, please do check out the sponsors, sign up, get their stuff. I enjoy it. Maybe you will too. Also, if you want to get in touch with me for whatever reason, go to lexfridman.com/contact. And now, on to the full ad reads. Let's go. This episode is brought to you by a new sponsor, Call of Duty Warzone and the return of the iconic Verdantsk map. I've been a Call of Duty fan for a long, long time. It's definitely one of my favorite shooters, the ultra realism. Combined with my fascination of history, you can kind of project whatever book you're reading about human history, whether it's World War II or modern warfare, on to the battlefield that they represent. Verdantsk was originally introduced, I believe, in March of 2020 during COVID, and it was just a great map that the entire Call of Duty community bonded over. So a little bit of this map is just nostalgia of it being brought back. I have a lot of nostalgia about the conversations, the experiences I had during that time. There really is an intimacy in voice communication during that time. Perhaps you know this about me, perhaps you don't, but I'm a huge fan of video games. I'm going to be doing a bunch of conversations with video game designers this year. I love the artistry of games. I love the engineering challenges of games. I love the high stakes deadlines that games create because it's so difficult to create a beautiful, complex, deep world with stories, with narratives, with characters. Anyway, if you want to try it, it'll be out on April 3rd. You can download Call of Duty Warzone for free and then drop into the Verdant map on April 3rd. Rated M for Mature. This episode is also brought to you by Element, my daily zero sugar and delicious electrolyte mix. I just had a tough jujitsu session and I have to say it's good to be back on the mat because I sprained my ACL a while back and I was trying to be smart. I was being smart by staying off the mat and I think it's back to 100%. It felt close to 100% today. I was able to go hard with a bunch of, you know, 200 plus pound meat heads and I didn't tell them of any injuries and all that kind of stuff. So they're just going wild of all ranks, white belt, blue belt, purple, brown, black, all of it. I was able to do well sort of in terms of timing, in terms of movement, in terms of structural strength, you know, that injuries can sympathize compromise. So it felt really good. But anyway, I was on the way back, that ride back on the way from Jiu Jitsu. I was sipping an element drink and listening to country music. And just had this deep sense of gratitude to be able to train hard still, you know, many, many years into my training journey. Anyway, I was sipping that element and enjoying life. Get a sample pack for free with any purchase. Try it at drinklmnt.com/lex.