37. Sendhil Mullainathan Thinks Messing Around Is the Best Use of Your Time

**SPEAKER_1** (0:00)
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**SPEAKER_2** (0:29)
Courage.

**SPEAKER_3** (0:29)
I learned it from my adoptive mom.

**SPEAKER_2** (0:31)
Hold my hand.

**SPEAKER_4** (0:32)
You hold my hand.

**Morgan Levy** (0:35)
Learn about adopting a team from foster care at adoptuskids.org.

**SPEAKER_4** (0:39)
You can't imagine the reward.

**SPEAKER_1** (0:40)
Brought to you by AdoptUSkids, the US Department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council.

**Steven Levitt** (0:49)
I am especially excited about today's episode because my guest is Sendhil Mullainathan, one of my absolute favorite people in the world. Sendhil is a world-class economist and MacArthur Genius recipient and holds a university professorship at the University of Chicago. That's a special position reserved for only the most highly esteemed faculty. Only 10 of the university's 3,000 faculty members have that title.
What makes Sendhil so special? His mix of brilliance and childlike curiosity make him unlike anyone I've ever known. His research reflects his curiosity. He's written about everything from racial bias and artificial intelligence algorithms to the psychological effects of poverty, from the determinants of CEO pay to corruption and who gets a driver's license in India.

**SPEAKER_4** (1:32)
Welcome to People I Mostly Admire with Steve Levitt.

**Steven Levitt** (1:39)
I've known Sendhil for 25 years, but it wasn't until he left Harvard to come to the University of Chicago a few years back that I came to fully appreciate him. Lots of people are interesting if you only talk to them once a year, but not many people can make everyday conversation fascinating. He just never fails to amaze me with his creativity and breadth of knowledge, and I'm quite confident that once you hear him talk, you'll agree.
Sendhil, I always eagerly look forward to our conversations, and two reasons I love talking to you are, first, there's always something that has you so excited, you can barely contain yourself, and second, what that something will be is completely unpredictable. So the last time we talked, it was an Oculus virtual reality headset that had transformed your life. So is your love for the Oculus still going strong?

**Sendhil Mullainathan** (2:36)
Absolutely. I have to say, it is one of the more amazing inventions. I'm sure that lots of people out there who've been using it for years are like, how is this an insight? But these media for communication by which we can translate ideas to each other, they may start off as novelties, but they have profound consequences on how we live our lives.

**Steven Levitt** (2:54)
So I was convinced when we talked and you were so excited. I went right home and I immediately bought an Oculus for my research center because one of our goals is to transform the educational system. And the way you described your experiences, all I could think about is that the possibilities if we got this technology in the classrooms must be infinite. And I must say, the workers in my center, I've never seen them tackle a project with such gusto. Our Oculus has been in use, I'd say, 10 to 12 hours per day every day. And all of that time, I'm sure, is devoted to exploring the educational potential of the device.
One thing I know about you is you don't think small, you always think big. What's your big vision for what happens with VR?

**Sendhil Mullainathan** (3:35)
Let me throw out an idea for you and see what you think. Why do we go into offices at all? I mean, at all. Why do we fly across country? Why do we do any of it? And it's because there is still a reality that somehow when you and I talk on the phone or when you and I even talk on Zoom, it's not quite the same as being in person. Now, it's entirely possible that we can recreate that experience 100% with virtual reality, which if you think of the knock-on consequences, let me give you an example. One of the things that people say is that the cell phone decoupled the phone number from a location.
Suddenly, the cell phone made it so that a phone number referred to you, not the address at which it was sitting.
Now, that has profound consequences. If similarly, your office location was not a physical place, but was you, you can work from anywhere, you can do anything. It totally transforms your capacity to interact with each other and how we interact. So, I'm curious what you think of that one.