360 | Marc Berman on the Science of Touching Grass

**Sean Carroll** (0:00)
Awkward time to ask this, but hey, did you download the trail map?

**SPEAKER_2** (0:04)
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**Marc Berman** (0:05)
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**SPEAKER_5** (0:14)
Well, I don't trust my carrier that much.

**SPEAKER_2** (0:17)
Well, just use your phone as a flashlight.

**SPEAKER_6** (0:20)
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**Sean Carroll** (1:37)
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Mindscape Podcast. I'm your host, Sean Carroll. Have you been told by one of the kids today to go touch grass? Or are you a kid today who has told people to go touch grass? I get the impression, I do not pretend, to be up on the lingo used by the youths of the world today. But in certain circles, you know, if you're having a conversation or interacting, usually online, and someone is trying to point out that maybe you become a little unmoored or unhinged or unrelated to the real world, maybe it's time for you to get off the computer, go wander outside in nature, look at a tree, touch the grass, get reconnected to the natural world around you to maybe find your bearings a little bit. And the good news is there is science to back up the idea that this would actually be a clever strategy to reconnect yourself to the world. Or maybe even a better way of saying it is you would become a better thinker, not just someone who is in a better mood, but you can actually use your mental capacities more effectively if you are experiencing nature in some way. At least that's the thesis being put forward in a book that came out last year by today's guest, Marc Berman. The book is called Nature and the Mind, the Science of How Nature Improves Cognitive, Physical, and Social Well-being.
And as we'll see, Marc has been a pioneer in an idea called Environmental Neuroscience, trying to judge how the brain functions differently in different contexts. One of those contexts might be literally you're out in nature just taking a walk or whatever. Another might be you're in your room in an office or at home or in an urban environment walking around the street.
Maybe it's not surprising in retrospect, but our brains seem to function better, some evidence indicates, when we're in that natural environment. After all, we did evolve in a more natural environment. We didn't have cities. A hundred thousand years ago and the development of technology and urbanization has been a relatively recent occurrence in human history. So there's something about, and this is the fun part of the conversation is that we're not exactly sure what it is, but there's something about just looking at natural things, whether it's coastlines or trees or whatever, that engages our brain in a way that is restorative rather than draining. And again, it's not just about you feel good, it puts you in a good mood. You can do better on cognitive tests when you are outside or even have recently been on a walk through the woods. So as Marc wants to stress, we chatted about this after we actually recorded the podcast. It's not against cities. We both live in cities. We love cities. There's something good and important and creative about living in a city in various methods, various measures that you could quantify. But there's also something important if you want to be at your best to get some nature in your life. And that might be literally taking a walk in nature or even something as simple as having a window that looks out at a tree rather than out at a brick wall or out at a street. So I think it's very interesting as a hypothesis and the evidence for it is very interesting. As you'll see, we got derailed a couple of times during the conversation just because there's interesting physics and information theory and complexity theory that comes in when you try to figure out why is it that this kind of thing helps the brain. And as an extra treat, I'm beginning to add these extra treats more and more. We did one with Daniel Harlow a few weeks ago where we talked like physicists at the very end. Here the extra treat is at the very end, Marc and I switch roles, and I give Marc a little chance to do an AMA. So he's a fan of the podcast, he's listened to many other episodes. So he asks me questions for a few minutes at the end there.