#323 Annie Jacobsen - Is America Ready for Biological War?

**Shawn Ryan** (0:03)
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**Unknown** (1:36)
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**Annie Jacobsen** (2:07)
I just love doing podcasts so much. It just gives somebody like me an opportunity to have a conversation. I mean, in the old days, you had to go on like a news program and talk for four minutes in between a commercial break.

**Shawn Ryan** (2:20)
They gave you four minutes?

**Annie Jacobsen** (2:22)
Right?

**Shawn Ryan** (2:23)
That's generous.

**Annie Jacobsen** (2:24)
Yeah, yeah. Podcasts have reach. Okay, good story, Shawn Ryan story. I'm in about podcasts having reach. I'm in, I'm an avid skier. I'm in the Italian Alps in February a few months ago, okay? Skiing. Little hut, like a hotel that you ski in, ski out. Couldn't be more in the middle of nowhere in the Dolomite Mountains.
There with a whole family.
Go to settle the bill with the night manager at the end of the thing, and he says to me, I have to say I really enjoyed seeing you on The Shawn Ryan Show podcast.

**Shawn Ryan** (3:00)
In the Italian Alps?

**Annie Jacobsen** (3:03)
As God is my witness and my husband, who was standing there, right? And I said, you're kidding. And he said, no.
And he said, I'm a fan of the show, and now I read your books.

**Shawn Ryan** (3:14)
That's awesome. That's awesome.

**Annie Jacobsen** (3:16)
In the middle of the Italian Dolomite Mountains.

**Shawn Ryan** (3:19)
Oh, that's beautiful up there.

**Annie Jacobsen** (3:21)
Yeah, it's gorgeous. But that's reach for you, and it's incredible to think about how much we are alike. I mean, what really would you think the night manager at a small hotel in the mountains in Italy would necessarily have in common with you or I? And then you have that desire to communicate, desire for information, you know, listening to a good podcast. So congratulations to you.

**Shawn Ryan** (3:49)
I appreciate that. Well, it's good to have you back, Annie.

**Annie Jacobsen** (3:52)
Thank you. It's great to be here.

**Shawn Ryan** (3:54)
Awesome to have you back. I love talking to you.

**Annie Jacobsen** (3:56)
I love talking to you.

**Shawn Ryan** (3:57)
So let me give you an introduction here for anybody that missed the first episode.
Annie Jacobsen, you're a Pulitzer Prize finalist, investigative journalist and New York Times bestselling author who spent your career uncovering some of the most secretive aspects of the US government. You've written bestselling books including Area 51, Operation Paperclip, The Pentagon's Brain, Surprise, Kill, Vanish, Nuclear War, A Scenario, and your newest release Biological Warfare, A Scenario. Everyone loved your last appearance on the show.
So, we'd love to have you back. And I gotta say, Annie, I think your timelines are a little reversed here with the previous book, Nuclear War and the New One, Biological Warfare. But what do you think about all this stuff going on, you know? I mean, in Iran, the nuclear, I mean, I don't think anything's gonna happen.

**Annie Jacobsen** (4:56)
You mean, is the war in Iran ratcheting up the threat of nuclear war, per se? I mean, you know, it's such a rabbit hole of a topic, that war, I don't, because Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapon, and because the alleged premise of that war is to keep Iran from having a nuclear weapon, it exists in a little bit of a different lane that I, then I am really interested in reporting on, which is what if a nuclear war happens? Because, you know, Iran has almost had a bomb for a very long time.