28. Professor Carl Hart Argues All Drugs Should Be Legal — Can He Convince Steve?

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**Steve Levitt** (0:48)
Carl Hart is not your typical academic. Trained as a neuroscientist and now a psychology professor at Columbia University.
In his research studies, he brings heavy drug users into his lab for weeks at a time to observe how drugs affect them and to learn about the decision making. In his new book, Drug Use for Grown-Ups, he argues for a radical overhaul of drug policy. He's not just talking marijuana. In his ideal world, heroin, methamphetamines, cocaine, they'd all be legal.

**SPEAKER_4** (1:20)
Welcome to People I Mostly Admire with Steve Levitt.

**Steve Levitt** (1:25)
I've been teaching undergraduates about drug policy for two decades, and I definitely haven't been teaching them what Carl Hart advocates. So I wonder whether he'll change my mind. He certainly thought a lot harder about these issues than I have. I'm also deeply curious to see what he's like as a person. He's incredibly open in his books, talking about harsh details of his life growing up, and especially about his own extensive use of drugs.
My guess is that he's going to be a lot more fun than my usual guest.
All right. So let's start with a punchline. If you were in charge of drug policy in the United States, and you could start completely from scratch, no constraints. What set of policies towards currently illicit drugs would you put into place?

**Carl Hart** (2:16)
The first thing I'd do is I would legally regulate the drugs that people seek from cocaine to heroin to cannabis to MDMA.
People might have to pass a requirement like a driver's license in order to purchase something like heroin and cocaine. I would also control the unit dose, make sure that there's not enough in a product to kill people. When we're dealing with the illicit drug market, there isn't any quality control. The substances may contain poisons, toxins and other impurities that may be dangerous to the person.

**Steve Levitt** (2:50)
Anything else goes with it?

**Carl Hart** (2:51)
We have to change what we do in terms of public education.
For example, we have to have a public service announcements that would be helpful in teaching people how not to mix certain drugs, warning people about the potential dangers for overdose there, but also given realistic education, understanding that some drug mixtures are actually desired, like a sedative and a stimulant, or like a speed ball. Just warn people about routes of administration. If you snort a drug, it kind of functions as a safety mechanism as opposed to smoking a drug, where you can put as much as you can or want into your bloodstream, and that's where people get into trouble.

**Steve Levitt** (3:33)
So I've read your book, Drug Use for Growing Ups, which is a new book, excellent book. And you really are in favor of a lot of drugs that a lot of other people aren't in favor of. Are you the only person on the planet who's seen the praises of opioids and crack cocaine and methamphetamines these days?

**Carl Hart** (3:50)
Maybe I'm one of the few people who is willing to acknowledge the benefits of these drugs, but there are a number of people who privately acknowledge the benefits. I mean, they use these drugs. And so it's okay right now in our society to acknowledge psychedelic use because it's hip, cool, it's associated with our educated class, associated with white members of our society, and so that's so easy. But when you think of something like heroin or methamphetamine, now you're talking about the lower classes of society, the undesired people.
And when you are standing up for the undesired, it's a lonely place to be, but it's the right place to be and history will show that.

**Steve Levitt** (4:33)
So in your book, you mentioned that you use heroin. And there must have been 100 headlines about Columbia professor admits to heroin use. Did it surprise you how the reporting went about that issue?