#2525 - Nick Bostrom

**Joe Rogan** (0:01)
Joe Rogan Podcast, checking out The Joe Rogan Experience.

**Nick Bostrom** (0:06)
Trained by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

**Joe Rogan** (0:12)
It's great to see you again.

**Nick Bostrom** (0:14)
Yeah, good to see you.

**Joe Rogan** (0:16)
So since the last time we talked, we spent a lot of time where you were trying to explain to me simulation theory and why the probability of simulation theory is more likely than it not being a simulation.

**Nick Bostrom** (0:33)
Yeah, it was what, five years ago or something?

**Joe Rogan** (0:34)
I think it was six, five or six.

**Nick Bostrom** (0:37)
I mean a lot of things happened in the world since then.

**Joe Rogan** (0:40)
Yes, yes, a lot of things. I mean, for example, back then, I think we, did we even talk about AI?

**Nick Bostrom** (0:48)
It probably came up a bit, but it's not like it wasn't there.

**Joe Rogan** (0:52)
It wasn't this thing looming over civilization, which is really fascinating when you think about the fact that it's only been six years, and in six years, what a massive jump in some new technology in our life. Sort of like the Internet, where it crept up on us, we just accepted that it's a thing, but that this thing has gotten massively entangled in every aspect of society, in every aspect of people's lives, in a very short period of time.

**Nick Bostrom** (1:24)
Yeah. I mean, things are like so much is happening now, that it's kind of a full-time job just to monitor the situation.

**Joe Rogan** (1:31)
Yeah.
One of the things that you're talking about is the positive aspects of it, right? You're talking about like that this is probably going to be a net good for humanity.

**Nick Bostrom** (1:44)
Hopefully. I mean, I think I take both cases seriously, the sort of the risk side and the big unlock if we get things right.

**Joe Rogan** (1:56)
I feel like we have the potential, like we're on a whitewater raft, we have the potential to get to our destination. But we also have the potential to flip over and try to figure out how to get to shore and freeze in cold water and sort of rebuild.

**Nick Bostrom** (2:10)
Yeah, that seems about right.
Yeah, and it seems like it's kind of speeding up a bit as well, right? If you're sort of in this field, there's like every few weeks, there's a new model being released or something. I guess it's like, if you imagine, I guess commentating some fight, right? That's been recorded and you're supposed to do the voiceover. The first round is like normal speed, and then the second round is 2x. And then the third round 4x. And it's just like a whir of legs and arms.

**Joe Rogan** (2:43)
That's a great way to describe it. Yeah.
It's just so strange how quickly it's snuck up on us and that there's two narratives that we hear. The one narrative is we're in real trouble and that this thing is going to take over every aspect of society and it's essentially going to be a superior life force, a superior intellect that exists amongst us that we created, and we don't think that's wise. Then there's the other side that is saying things like what Elon says, where he's saying we're going to have universal high income. It's going to be so much prosperity that no one's ever going to have to toil again. There'll be no more third world countries. There'll be no more poverty. We can eradicate poverty with the resources that we have on earth, and we can change what it means to have to work. Just to provide yourself with food and housing, that's all going to be easy and free. And then everything else is going to be, you have to find a purpose in your life. My problem is, and I love Elon, but the people who have that perspective are all making money off AI.
They are all invested heavily, Mark Andreessen, all these people that have this rosy view of it, they're all invested heavily into it. So when there's someone like you, who's not necessarily in that camp, you know, that is more of a true objective analyst of what's going on, when you have a positive aspect or a positive viewpoint of it, I get a little more excited.

**Nick Bostrom** (4:14)
Yeah, well, I mean, the truth is we don't know, right, how it will pan out. So, I mean, I think there are these scenarios where we unlock this, you know, enormous boost, both to economic productivity, but then, you know, across medicine, entertainment, environment, travel, all kinds of things. And like a tsunami of wealth just kind of flows through and lifts all boats. And then the idea of human work becomes an anachronism, and where you have machines that can do everything that we can do physically and mentally, and do it much better and cheaper.