#2121 - Jonathan Haidt

Joe Rogan (0:13)

Good to see you, sir.

Jonathan Haidt (0:14)

Good to see you again, Joe.

Joe Rogan (0:16)

The same problems that you talked about when you were here last, that I've referenced many times since on the podcast, have only exacerbated, unfortunately. And that's why you wrote this, The Anxious Generation.

And it could not be more true how the Great Rewiring of Childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness. I don't think anybody can dispute that.

Jonathan Haidt (0:41)

Yeah, when I was on last time, there was a dispute. There were some psychologists who said, oh, this is just a moral panic. They said this about video games and comic books. And, you know, this is not a real thing, they said.

Now they don't.

Joe Rogan (0:55)

Yeah, I think it was pretty obvious. I think it was only their preconceived notions that were keeping them from admitting it before or at least looking at it before. Or maybe they don't have children.

You know, could be that. I think a lot of older people, particularly boomers, they're a little bit disconnected from it because they're not, unless they're addicted to Twitter, you know, they're not engaging in this stuff.

Jonathan Haidt (1:16)

Yeah, and they're often thinking, you know, when I was a kid, we watched too much TV and we turned out okay. But part of the message of the book is that social media and the things kids are doing on screens are not really like TV. They're much, much worse for development.

Joe Rogan (1:28)

Yeah, and even watching too much TV, I don't agree that they turned out okay.

I think it had a pervasive effect. It did, but nothing like this.

Jonathan Haidt (1:39)

Well, that's right. Because, you know, when we were watching TV, I'm a little older than you, I was born in 1963

So I grew up watching a lot of TV, you know, maybe, you know, an hour or two a day, weekdays, and then two or three hours on the weekends. But it was a bigger screen. You're watching with your sisters or with your friends, you're arguing about things, you're eating. So it's actually pretty social.

But now kids are spending, the latest survey, Gallup, finds that it's about, what's five hours a day, just on social media, just social media, including TikTok and Instagram. And when you add in all the other screen-based stuff, it's like nine hours a day. And that's not social. It's private on your little screen. You're not communicating with others. So, you know, in all these ways, the new way that kids are digital is really not like what we had when we were on watching TV.

Joe Rogan (2:28)

It's also an extraordinary amount of wasted resources. I'm always embarrassed when I look at my phone. I want to see my screen time, like, four hours.

That's four hours I could have done so many different things with.

Jonathan Haidt (2:40)

That's right. And so that's the concept of opportunity cost is this great term that economists have, which is the cost of, you know, if you buy something, if you invest, you know, an hour of your time and a hundred dollars to do something, how much does it cost? Well, you know, a hundred dollars, but you could use that hundred dollars and that hour for something else. So what are the things you gave up?

And when screen time goes up to, now it's about nine hours a day in the United States, nine hours a day, not counting scores.

Joe Rogan (3:07)

Average?

Jonathan Haidt (3:08)

Average. Average.

Joe Rogan (3:09)

Is that for a certain age group?

Jonathan Haidt (3:11)

We're talking teenagers, yeah, not little kids. But, you know, thirteen to fifteen, seventeen, that range, that's when it's heaviest.

It's around nine hours a day. And so the opportunity cost is everything else. Like, imagine if somebody said to you, Joe, you know, you've got a full life. Here, you have to do this thing, this additional thing for nine hours. Like, that's insane. That would push out everything else, including sleep.

Joe Rogan (3:37)

When you are now talking to people that agree that this is an issue, what changed?

Jonathan Haidt (3:46)

So, you mean, what changed? Like, why is there now more agreement?

Joe Rogan (3:48)

Yes.

Jonathan Haidt (3:49)

Yeah.

So, in 2019, when I was last here with you, my book The Coddling of the American Mind had just come out. And back then, people were beginning to sense that, you know, this internet, this, these, the phones, the social media that we are all so amazed by, you know, there was a very positive feeling about all this stuff in the early part, you know, like in the 2000s.